(Winick /Mahnke) Batman General Discussion

[Downfall]

Okay, I know this is this teams first issue, (actually Winick wrote "As The Crow Flies" in this title a few months ago, which was AWESOME and blew away the half-arse "Broken City"... anyway...)

But I have to say, an excellent start.
And I hope they stick around for more than 1 or 2 story-arcs.

Also, Red Hood. Call me crazy, but I have a theory... It's Lucius Fox. I mean, we start out with Hood unmasking Bats (using blades that can cut through an armored suit...) and when HE unmasks, Bruce is like "It's YOU..."

Anyway, good job, guys.

[Ryan Broussard]

In total agreement about as the crow flies

however i dropped batman once the whole war games thing started, if i wanted to jump back onto this arc, do i need to know what happened in that, if so i really dont have that much motivation to join this title again

[Cardiac]

As the crow flies was mediocre at best, telling a boring 'designer drug used to ill effects' story I've read before and enjoyed better then. Also Tim passing for a medical student was a stretch as he's fairly muscular and about 16/17 so well into puberty.

[Ryan Broussard]

still it was waaaay better than broken city!

[Michael Haller]

I have this feeling that it's Jason Todd, while I highly doubt it will happen and I really don't want it to happen. It seems that since Hush and now this as if DC has been itching to bring him back

I wouldn't be surprised if it was who you say it is downfall, it would be a nice twist.

[Michael Haller]

Originally posted by Ryan Broussard
In total agreement about as the crow flies

however i dropped batman once the whole war games thing started, if i wanted to jump back onto this arc, do i need to know what happened in that, if so i really dont have that much motivation to join this title again


The biggest part of this arc that has to do with War Games has to do with Black Mask, but it's not that important that one would be required to read WarGames.

[Sloat]

I thought the first issue was very unremarkable. I've dropped it.

[Sloat]

But I'm friggin' excited that Frank Miller and Jim Lee are teaming up for All-Star Batman!!!

[Ryan Broussard]

lets call it what it is Ultimate DC

still yeah does sound good

[Bad_Monkey]

Miller and Jim Lee. Anyone want to take bets on how long it takes for that book to get delayed?

[Ryan Broussard]

i'll put my faith in DC and say, it nevr comes out, at least thats better than what marvel does

[Magnus2k]

Originally posted by Ryan Broussard
In total agreement about as the crow flies

however i dropped batman once the whole war games thing started, if i wanted to jump back onto this arc, do i need to know what happened in that, if so i really dont have that much motivation to join this title again \

Not really. Like already stated, Black Mask is the new crime leader as of yet, but he still hasnt crossed big guns like The Joker. And, the city is a different place. The cops aren't on Bats side anymore. They'd as soon shoot him then help him. Oracle, Batgirl and Robin all left Gotham, so Batman is on his own again. Thats about all you'd need to know. Oh, and Bruce has another death on his shoulders.

[Cardiac]

The cops have orders to shoot him. Doesn't mean they all want to or even would.

[Downfall]

Really besides Black Mask being the new "Kingpin" of Gotham, and Bats' grief over losing another sidekick, this really doesn't have much to do with "War Games".

Well, it takes place after it obviously, but that's about it.

[Magnus2k]

Originally posted by Cardiac
The cops have orders to shoot him. Doesn't mean they all want to or even would.

Half of em shot at him, and his crew during the arc. More than once.

[Cardiac]

And yet my point still stands...

[Magnus2k]

Originally posted by Cardiac
And yet my point still stands...

Never said it didnt. I just said while they may not want to, they do anyway. It was shown happening.

[Kevin Reeves]

Batman has TWO more deaths on his shoulders, right? Sorry for my lack of spoiler tag usage (can someone direct me to how to use a spoiler tag?), but two of Batman's extended family members died in War Games, both at the hands of the Black Mask----The Spoiler AND Orpheus. Although, they don't show Batman as upset about Orpheus as Spoiler, I guess because Spoiler was a teen chick who used to be Robin (just for a few issues) while Orpheus was supposedly more trust-worthy(?).

Now that I think about it, Spoiler felt like just filler until Tim Drake came around to being Robin again. Like Batman just gave Spoiler the Robin mantle as a way of trying to coax Tim back into the role or something. Bruce never trusted Stephanie/Spoiler, then out of the blue he handed her the role of Robin.

I think Batman became too reliant on his family of fellow crime-fighters, and War Games showed how he lost nearly all of them due to this (it got Orpheus & Spoiler killed, Barbara Gordon/Oracle got pissed that Bruce didn't respect her omnipotent skills, Tim was shattered by the loss of Darla Aquista AND Stephanie Brown, & the GCPD was upset about Bruce's indignance having taken them for granted). All in all, I felt like War Games was a cleansing of the ranks to re-isolate Bruce, as his obsessive mission requires: to being a dark loner in the fight to protect Gotham.

[Kevin Reeves]

Although it was sad to lose Spoiler. The kid had spunk. As for Orpheus? Well, they didn't exactly develop that character very much, as far as I could tell, but there was a window of time during which I couldn't afford to keep up with all of the Bat-titles, so I may have missed some amazing Orpheus stories that could be out there, I suppose...

[Magnus2k]

SantaRose to do spoilers just type [spo*ler] type message here [/spo*ler].........just replace the * with an i. And you're right, the point of War Games was to put Bruce back into the situation he found himself in when he first started the Bat. Alone, with no help other than Alfred. No sidekicks, no cops, no anything.

[Kevin Reeves]

Thanks a bunch! Now I can let the good spoilers roll.....

[Downfall]

I forgot ab/t the Jason Todd teaser. *Is this even spoiler worthy? Eh.*

Anyway... thoughts on why it's Fox is b/c WayneTech's research and weapons division has been bought out, right?
Well, Red Hood obviously has weapons that can cut and blow through Batman's... so either he got them off the black market,as Bruce suggested, or he's a lot closer than Bats thought.

[Magnus2k]

You have a good point. But you also have to remember the way DC and Marvel think. Fox is in the new movie coming out in June. His part is of yet to be mentioned in detail, but I'm sure if it was as a villian, we'd have heard something. DC wouldnt put him in a story as a villian if he plans on playing his traditional part in the movie. It could confuse new readers and such. But, it might not, so ya never know.

[Symphony of Six]

I dropped Batman as well for the War Games crossover but isn't Nightwing back in Gotham with Batman? I'm going to have to say that the Red Hood is Jason Todd because Winick has hinted and had an interest in bringing him back

[Cardiac]

Originally posted by Symphony Of Six
I dropped Batman as well for the War Games crossover but isn't Nightwing back in Gotham with Batman? I'm going to have to say that the Red Hood is Jason Todd because Winick has hinted and had an interest in bringing him back

If this is the case I'm dropping the book.

[Magnus2k]

Originally posted by Symphony Of Six
I dropped Batman as well for the War Games crossover but isn't Nightwing back in Gotham with Batman? I'm going to have to say that the Red Hood is Jason Todd because Winick has hinted and had an interest in bringing him back

No. Nightwing is not back in Gotham. He stayed behind while the others left because he was injured, and Alfred really wouldnt let him leave. It showed him leaving the Batcave in Nightwing 99 I think, leading up for the big showdown with Tarantula in 100. I dont know if that took place in Bludhaven or Gotham though. But I also read that in the future Nightwing books, after year one is done, he'll be in Bludhaven so he's not sticking around either.

[Magnus2k]

Originally posted by Cardiac
If this is the case I'm dropping the book.

I would as well, at least until he was off the book. I'm hoping the DC editors would shoot that down though. Side note

What if they bring him back to only have him die again. That could be him Batman is holding in his arms during Countdown. Was that name of it? Anyway, its a terrible idea, I know, but a thought.

[Symphony of Six]

Originally posted by Magnus2k
I would as well, at least until he was off the book. I'm hoping the DC editors would shoot that down though. Side note

What if they bring him back to only have him die again. That could be him Batman is holding in his arms during Countdown. Was that name of it? Anyway, its a terrible idea, I know, but a thought.

I can see leaving the book if they put him in it for the novelty of it...but if it's a good reason or a good story there's no excuse there. But then again the first comic I ever read when I was A Death in the Family so it would be alright by me ...really...do we even really need spoilers talking about this.

I'm 95% positive that Batman is holding Blue Beetle in DC Countdown...In the latest Wizard...damn, I can't believe I'm forgetting his name off the top of my head...whatever, DC's EIC said Blue Beetle is going to be behind everything big in 2005... and if you look closely at the pic you can somewhat make out his trademark eyes.

I figured if I'm going to use spoilers I'd go Ape $%!^.:D

[S.A. Parvaze]

Originally posted by Symphony Of Six
...really...do we even really need spoilers talking about this.

Blake has you running scared, doesn't he? ;)

But to answer your question, I don't see why you'd need them in this conversation.

My general rule of thumb is that you really only need to use the tags if you're relating a story specific.

[Symphony of Six]

Thanks S.A.

Then hear me loud and clear everyone...

BLUE BEETLE IS WHO BATS IS HOLDING ON THE COVER OF DC COUNTDOWN!!!

Oh, and I run from no one.;)

[Kevin Reeves]

Aw, shucks! I was hoping it would be Babs Gordon. Don't ask why. Guess I just dig that character way too much.

I wish there was a DCU-wide crossover with her as a central character. I mean, for awhile there, wasn't everyone & their Grandma getting plugged with info from Oracle? And now that Barbara Gordon has left Gotham City, I'm wondering what the heck the JLA is doing?

Shouldn't the DCU be in chaos without their #1 informant doing all their research for them?!? (sorry for tangential topic)

[Kevin Reeves]

well, guess I still don't know how to use the spoiler tags! *lol* Sorry about that. Of course, that Babs bit is pretty old news by now. (like 3 issues of Birds Of Prey ago)

[S.A. Parvaze]

It's with brackets [], not with the less than and greater than signs <>.

[Bad_Monkey]

Barbara hasn't quit being Oracle and quit supplying the goodly people of the DCU with information, she's just not in Gotham anymore.

[Kevin Reeves]

Oh, OK. Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying for me. I haven't seen her supply info to DCU's folks since her departure from Gotham, so I wasn't sure if she'd given the gig up to just take care of BOP biz or not. Wow, she's a hard-working gal!

[jonsnow]

Really liked the first installment of this story. But I am of agreementon it better not be Jason Todd under the hood. If it turns out to be Jason Todd I will be calling for Winick to be taken to the gallows and DC to clean house on editors allowing that to happen. Not sure Lucius could fit the role either, but I sure know that I'll be madder than all else if Jason ever returns.

[Sloat]

Well, I just saw the preview for part 2 on Popcultureshock and I'm thinking that perhaps I passed judgement on the first part too quickly. Maybe, just maybe, I will get part 2.

[Downfall]

Why is everybody sending death threats to Judd Winicks house if the bad guy turns out to be Jason Todd?

1. I was under the impression that when Todd was alive, everybody hated him. So making him the villain... at most nobody would care if he was a baddie IF wasn't dead.

2. Aren't y'all some of the same people saying how brilliant and awesome it was to bring back Colossus?
I don't see how...

Ahh... *lets it go*

[Kevin Reeves]

downfall --

The problem folks have with resurrecting Jason Todd is, I imagine, the same problem everyone would seem to have with Barbara G. if her legs could be healed (despite Bruce Wayne's broken back having been healed in the past, Catwoman "dying" in her book only to be alive again in some mystical realm, Tim Drake catching the Clutch Plague & then getting cured, etc.) -- because those 2 events ( Barbara Gordon's loss of leg usage & Jason Todd's murder ) were NOT reversed within a matter of issues, making them more than just the standard soap opera dramatic moment, waiting to be undone. Instead, those 2 events were LEFT AS IS, further darkening Batman & making his universe that much grittier, letting us fans know that writers are willing to go there & be that much more real when it comes to Gothamites.

The line seems to be drawn between fans in this way--how long is long enough before writers can undo what past writers have done? There's a magic to believing that some dark, dirty deeds are F-O-R-E-V-E-R (thunder crashes in the distance). It's one of the major elements that gives Gotham City the extra-thick shadows which other books (DCU or otherwise) lack, in my opinion.

FOR EXAMPLE, no one's threatening to stop reading Wonder Woman even though we all know her blind days are numbered. She's going to be healed by the Gods, just give it a few more issues. I'd be pleasantly surprised if writers had the guts to leave Diana blind & take her character to totally cool depths with that (she IS an amazon/demi-goddess, so I'm sure she could deal in the long run, right? Marvel's Daredevil pulled it off, & he was human!), but I just don't feel they would be willing to take it there.

I SAY, IF YOU'RE A GOOD ENOUGH WRITER, YOU CAN PULL ANYTHING OFF. I'm just excited to see who Hush is & who the new Red Hood is, Jason Todd or otherwise! As we know from recent Gotham Knights issues, Hush is NOT Bruce's old friend Tommy Elliott.

[jonsnow]

Wait, in GK they have already destroyed the idea of Hush that Loeb gave us? Damn I don't want to read every single Bat title to know what is happening. Why would they overturn that character so soon?

[Magnus2k]

Bringing back Jason Todd isn't like bringing back Collosus. The death of Jason is Batmans greatest failure. Its a big part of why he acts the way he does now. Bringing back Jason would eliminate that.

Jonsnow, I was wondering the same thing when I read it. The only thing I could come up with is that at one point I read that Loeb and Lee said there was more to that story, and they'd get to it when the time was right. Either the DC editors didnt want to wait, or this is just a way of leading the dreamteam back into it. Other than that, I'm not sure.

[jonsnow]

Been trying to find answers to my own questions and have come up short. All I know is that I will not be happy if Jason ends up being the Red Hood or Hush, he needs to stay down. Second, that while the explanation of Elliot hating Bruce was not the best part of the Hush storyline, having him be someone entirely different in a story not told by his creator would seem kind of weak. Hush is not Tommy? Fine, but let Loeb explain how so. Mainly I am just frustrated because Hush has become a main player in the Batman gallery and I would rather not have to read multiple Bat titles every month for something this important, it should be done in the flagship title. However, this is just my two-cents ignore if needed.

[Symphony of Six]

I don't know if anybody's seen April's solicitation for Batman but it goes off about how the Red Hood has been revealed and the next arc is called "Family Reunion" and it shows Batman all pissed standing in front of a grave...Jason Todd?

[Kevin Reeves]

Yup. I saw that. So either it IS Jason Todd, or someone's screwing with Batman to make him think it is (which I think would be even cooler...though, very Clayface of whoever the villain is). Or MAYBE IT'S ORPHEUS, all part of a plot to partner up with Black Mask & take over Gotham's crime families?!? Ya just never know.....

[Bad_Monkey]

Originally posted by jonsnow
Been trying to find answers to my own questions and have come up short. All I know is that I will not be happy if Jason ends up being the Red Hood or Hush, he needs to stay down. Second, that while the explanation of Elliot hating Bruce was not the best part of the Hush storyline, having him be someone entirely different in a story not told by his creator would seem kind of weak. Hush is not Tommy? Fine, but let Loeb explain how so. Mainly I am just frustrated because Hush has become a main player in the Batman gallery and I would rather not have to read multiple Bat titles every month for something this important, it should be done in the flagship title. However, this is just my two-cents ignore if needed.

Well in that case, you'd still have to be reading multiple titles, because Batman's flagship title is Detective Comics.

As for the issue at hand, the only comment I ever saw from Loeb said that they story he intended to come back to was the Harvey Dent story, and the odds of that happening anytime soon are looking slimmer and slimmer all the time. (Loeb's going off to write Supergirl, Lee's doing Ultimate Batman and Robin) So as far as I'm concerned Hush's identity, which, for the record, is never firmly established in in the Hush story, is fair game.

[jonsnow]

After reading an interview of Lieberman I am going to have to just bite the bullet and go for GK, because what he has hinted at has me ready to give him a shot.

[Ammar Al Subahi]

Maybe Azrael?

[Kevin Reeves]

There's one I forgot! Yes, Azrael! It could be him. Well, maybe....I don't even remember what happened to that freak (sorry to all you Az fans out there; I mean no insult).

[Bad_Monkey]

He's officially listed as "missing, presumed dead" as per Oracle's files. At the end of his series, he was shot full of holes and knocked off the top of a rather tall building.

Granted, the old rule of "no body, not really dead" still applies as they never found his corpse, but.... that is his current status nonetheless.

[Downfall]

Originally posted by Magnus2k
Bringing back Jason Todd isn't like bringing back Collosus. The death of Jason is Batmans greatest failure. Its a big part of why he acts the way he does now. Bringing back Jason would eliminate that.

I disagree. Bringing him back doesn't change the fact that he died, and Batman didn't save him.
If anything, IF DONE RIGHT, it throws it back in his face.

And, anyway, it's not like he never died... they mentioned Lazarus Pits, so it's possible...

[Magnus2k]

Originally posted by downfall
I disagree. Bringing him back doesn't change the fact that he died, and Batman didn't save him.
If anything, IF DONE RIGHT, it throws it back in his face.

And, anyway, it's not like he never died... they mentioned Lazarus Pits, so it's possible...

I disagree. Jason would be alive. Its no longer a death Bruce has to carry on his shoulders, well, cause it wouldnt be a death anymore.

[Kevin Reeves]

True or False?

BRUCE WAYNE WOULD BE JUST AS DEVASTATED & DARKENED BY Jason Todd if Jason was dead vs. if Jason had been brainwashed & tortured for years by someone to be manipulated as a tool for evil.

I think Bruce would take that possibly even harder than if Jason had just been dead all these years.....right?

[jonsnow]

Personally I don't want Jason to return. However, if done well it could produce some great tragedy in the Batman mythos, and that mythos is based on tragedy. The loss of Jason Todd is Batman's greatest failure, he knows it and we know it. To trivialize it with a return for boosted sales would be horrible, but if it is done in a way that makes it even more tragic than the death of a family member then it could be a great story. Whether or not Winnick or Lieberman has the ability to write that is not known to me. However, I have enough faith in DC that they won't pull a Marvelike gimmick and bring Jason back just for shock and sales.

[S.A. Parvaze]

Though, you would have to admit that there'd be a certain symmetry in bringing him back as a marketing gimmick, seeing as he died in party to one. ;)

[Michael Haller]

Originally posted by S.A. Parvaze
Though, you would have to admit that there'd be a certain symmetry in bringing him back as a marketing gimmick, seeing as he died in party to one. ;)



I've got it, have DC set up a number for people to call to determine if Todd should come back or stay dead....wait a minute, where have I seen this idea before. :o

[jonsnow]

Mr.0.6 you have said it best. If they treat it such as that it would be awful. While I do enjoy the Death in the Family story, I do not think letting the fans vote on it via telephone is the best of ideas. Since this story has become so essential yo the character that is Batman it would be a terrible idea to just ruin it. If Jason is back from the dead or what not, it should be done in a manner which will make the tragedy and despair even more pronounced.

[Ammar Al Subahi]

Originally posted by jonsnow
Mr.0.6 you have said it best. If they treat it such as that it would be awful. While I do enjoy the Death in the Family story, I do not think letting the fans vote on it via telephone is the best of ideas. Since this story has become so essential yo the character that is Batman it would be a terrible idea to just ruin it. If Jason is back from the dead or what not, it should be done in a manner which will make the tragedy and despair even more pronounced.

I totally agree, like let him die again in the same arc or something like that where Batman fails to save Jason AGAIN, I think that would mess him up a bit.

[jonsnow]

Now that would be a good story (again needs a good write), but thats the kind of thing that would make it not so bad if Jason returned (though I prefer he stay deaD). Another thing I think would be neat would be if Hush is truly not Thomas Elliot, then develop the aspect of Bats not being able to help Elliot fully, or something along those lines. Again, Batman needs tragedy and darkness. Superman is bright and uplifting. Batman is dark and tragic. Two heroes, but different approaches.

[Kevin Reeves]

jonsnow, I don't think Hush IS Tommy Elliot after all. I don't know. For full details, you should get current on the Gotham Knights title. MY lips are sealed so as to not spoil anything...

As for everything else about Jason Todd, I think if he comes back they will have to make it more devastating (that is to say, what has happened to him over the years) than a simple death. After all, they just knocked off Stephanie AND Orpheus, AND Darla Aquista AND Tim Drake's dad... So it's like a freaking parade of tears in Gotham, lately, which of course is perfect....because that's Batman, for ya. Infinite tragedy. SO why not take a past tragedy & make it even worse? Go writers, go!

[Downfall]

New issue's out. And it rocks. Either Red Hood is Jason Todd, or Judd Winick's playing serious games here.

It was funny seeing Freeze killing lab tech after lab tech. finally, the man has something of a personality!

Next issue: Amazo! Goodbye Batman and Nightwing.

[Michael Haller]

If it does indeed turn out to be Todd, I can't wait to hear Blakes reaction since he's been numero uno on being opposed to the idea.
,
I don't necessarly want it to happen after Marvel and Gwen, but I'd hope to have some faith that DC wouldn't make it such a gimick as they did with his death.

[Sloat]

The Red Hood is Arthur Brown -- The Cluemaster -- dead father of Stephanie Brown the Spoiler. He's back from the dead and out for revenge! Doesn't that mask kinda looks like Spoiler's mask without the hood?

Is he joking?

Yeah, he's joking. Cluemaster was never an acrobatic villain.

:)

[Downfall]

Originally posted by Michael Haller
If it does indeed turn out to be Todd, I can't wait to hear Blakes reaction since he's been numero uno on being opposed to the idea.
,
I don't necessarly want it to happen after Marvel and Gwen, but I'd hope to have some faith that DC wouldn't make it such a gimick as they did with his death.

See, there's the thing. I didn't think the thing Gwen with Gwen was all that bad either.

Off topic, but it never really gave a REASON for her to sleep with Osborn. It could be more than JMS is telling.

And simliarly, if it is Jason, why not give Winick a chance to explain why?
Never died in the first place, died then put in a Lazarus pit and ressurrected, etc.

[Kevin Reeves]

My thoughts exactly, Bryan. A good enough writer can pull anything off, no?

Just ask Gail Simone! In BIRDS OF PREY she managed to reduce the almighty evil Braniac into a cootie on Barbara Gordon's skin. Gotta love the Power of the Writer's Pen.

[Magnus2k]

I dont think the why and how he is brought back is the issue. Its the why he should that most question. Todd dying was a very impactful moment in Batman's life. Some agree bringing him back would make it worse, but most dont see it that way. Think about when in Hush Batman saw Clayface as Todd. He was shocked, and confused, but did he break down? No. Did he freak out? No. He fought him. Just went toe to toe. He didnt crawl in a hole thinking I let him die and now he's alive, what am I to do. Jason Todd is better off dead, for good.

[Kevin Reeves]

I hear you, Magnus.

His death DEFINITELY shaped the Bruce we know today.

[Sloat]

"Under the Hood, Part 3":

Awesome!

I finally appreciate Mahnke's artwork (largely due to "The Man Who Laughs") and Winick is finally writing a great Batman (intelligent, quick, not such a b*stard). I didn't care for "As the Crow Flies", and I was quite intent on dropping this book after the lackluster first part (which I still don't particularly like). But parts two and three have been something else. I think bringing in Nightwing was a great choice (Batman & Robin, baby!) and the fight in this issue was just pure fun.

[Downfall]

"Under the Hood, Part 3":

Awesome!

I finally appreciate Mahnke's artwork (largely due to "The Man Who Laughs") and Winick is finally writing a great Batman (intelligent, quick, not such a b*stard). I didn't care for "As the Crow Flies", and I was quite intent on dropping this book after the lackluster first part (which I still don't particularly like). But parts two and three have been something else. I think bringing in Nightwing was a great choice (Batman & Robin, baby!) and the fight in this issue was just pure fun.

Yeah, and I finally figured out a retort to everybody who thinks Red Hood is a certain undead sidekick.

Back during "Hush", Clayface did the same thing. Memorized Nightwing's moves, was told what to say up to a point.

It's possible Red Hood could be Clayface. *Not sure if that's spoiler-worthy, cause that's a theory based on the events of "Hush", but...*

[Downfall]

Okay, I MAY have been wrong about the Jason Todd thing.

Now I'm of two minds of this...

1. It sucks that another classic death has been undone, and this time with little reason...

2. But it still COULD be Clayface. Jason never seemed to me to be very athletic, or acrobatic. Well, Red Hood was flipping like Carly Patterson.

In Hush, Clayface mimicking "Jason" was copying Nightwing's moves. And at the end of this issue, Red Hood looked very... Nightwingish. In the face. Could just be the artist, but... until I see any hard evidence otherwise I'm sticking with the "Red Hood is is Jason Todd is Clayface" theory.

[jonsnow]

Ok here we go What the crap!? This issue left me more confused than anything, and while it was a fun action packed read, it is really making me eager, but mad to wait for next issue. Why is the Joker lying around a carnival looking like a crack addict? WHy oh why would they bring back Todd? His death is essential to the Batman of today. I will give Winnick a chance to explain this because i reaaly like him usually, but I gotta say i am somewhat steamed as of now. Oh yeah, but it was cool to see the tie in with Countdown with the missing kyptonite.

[AmazingMattMan]

my turn: ok i loved this issue. but mostly because im loving dc continuaty. like the countdown tie in. it was like an issue that took place in between countdown. i also thought the beat down on the joker was intense. now whos knows why he was in the carnival, especially since every time they show him hes in jail. but, like iv said before, i wish it wasnt jason todd. im tired of comic book resurrections. i want death to actually mean something. but i really like winnick, and i have faith in him to pull this off.

[jonsnow]

I have faith in him as well Mat. Winnick has long been one of my favored writers, but I am very displeased with thr return of Jason and the Joker portrayal as of now. Winnick could easily turn this into a great story. i am just so mad it ended, but it was a great way for Winnick to make us come back for more.

[Symphony of Six]

Not to brag or anything but I just want to say that I was right...also about another comic that only costs $1.00.

Spoilers Ahead!I loved how Jason got his revenge on the Joker...It was beautiful.

[Kevin Reeves]

JonSnow, AmazingMattMan--
This is an answer to spoiler-coded questions, but it comes from events of prior GOTHAM KNIGHTS books, so I don't think it's a spoiler. But since it relates to the comics in this thread, I guess it could be seen as a spoiler, so I'll tag it anyway!

Joker's been in the carnival because Hush was hunting him down with a murderous style, so Joker has been lying low there, at the carnival which is his old hang-out. He may still technically own the joint, under some alias or something? It's where he took Commissioner James Gordon after he shot his daughter Babs & kidnapped him. Joker's also a bit broken because, if I recall correctly, he found out that Riddler knows the name(s) of the man (men?) who killed Joker's wife oh-so-many-years-ago, when he was just becoming the Joker, & I do not believe that Riddler ever told Joker the name. Joker's in hiding & just torn-up about all that. It's a lot for a psycho to deal with!

[jonsnow]

Thanks for that clear up Kevin but I have to admit If that is true of the Joker I am beyond disappointed. The Joker is depressed!? Then why is he not out killing folks! He is scared of Hush?! Come on this guy isn't scared of Lex Luthor! His WIFE!? Where did this come from!? I do not read gotham Knights, but i am kind of glad I do not now. The Joker as a completely psychotic lunatic is what makes him fun to read. Now he has some sort of melancholy? Ok maybe if there was an origin of the Joker story to read I may feel differently, but this is not good in my opinion. Just seeing the Joker in essence washed up is bad portrayal of a great character.

[Adam Chapman]

The Killing Joke showed Joker's life prior to the Red Hood and actually becoming the Joker. And it showed his wife, and what led him to become what he is now. Great story. I don't readthe Batman titles right now, but a reference to Joker's wife? Cool. :banana:

[AmazingMattMan]

big thank you to kevin reeves for clearing that up. i havent been following the other bat titles.

and: did jason kill the joker? or just beat him senseless for fun? im leaning towards death because, crap...that was just crazy. haha

[jonsnow]

Thanks Adam, i will definately be reading Killing Joke ASAP now.

[Ryan Broussard]

im not reading batman, can someome PM me and tell me everything going on

I stopped reading rite b4 war games

Thanks dudes

[jonsnow]

THIS LINK CONTAINS SPOILERS GALORE!! SO BEWARE!!
http://www.newsarama.com/DC/Countdown_more/Batman_Hello.htm


Ok, not so upset by this turn of events anymore. Winnick has explained it in satisfactory fashion for me. Man this is making me salivate more than the upcoming Crisis. Although it does play directly into it. Now I just need to get my DC history up to date so that I can understand the situation the Joker was in.

[Ryan Broussard]

thanks dude i may have to pick this whole last arc up

[AmazingMattMan]

thanks dude i may have to pick this whole last arc up

its been pretty sweet. winick and mahnke have been telling a good story and mahnke has been nailing the action scenes. lots of sweet action scenes ::tim allen grunt:::

[Bigby Wolf]

I read the article at newsarama.com and I definetly can't wait to see how this pans out. Judd has alot of good points especially about how a lot of readers fall into the category of wanting a story, but hating conflict. They love the characters, but hate when things happen to them. But Spoilers something interesting came to me, when reading the previews of Batman for June they refer to the Red Hood as a she. Now I don't know if it was throw people off to the whole Jason thing but it is still a posibility it might not be Jason after all.

[Symphony of Six]

Also at newsarama.com right now they have spoiler news about the new Batman issue...SPOILERSIt goes off about how the return of Jason Todd has been planned for years and his coming back is going to play a major part in Infinite Crisis...It also stated that it wasn't a coincedence that the new Batman came out on the same day as Countdown...Now that's awesome...I'm just one of those people that wanted Jason to come back since the Death In the Family TPB was the first comic I read as a kid.

[jonsnow]

After rereading Countdown again, I oticed something interesting. Whne Ted visits Bruce in the Batcave in chapter one, the scene opens with a newspaper headline about the Red Hood striking again. Obviously this is a lot bigger than I expected. I am not a fan of resurrecting dead characters, but this looks like if it is done right it is going to be worth it.

[jonsnow]

Ok not to beat a dead horse but I have read this book probably ten times since Wednesday and each time I like it more. I would never have thought I would like Jason being brought back, but after reading the interview of Winnick and understanding where he is taking us I realize this book was probably the best of this month, if not of 2005 so far. Again this is just my opinion, but I love when I set aside my own original opinion and come to see something as what it really is. And this really is AWESOME!!

[Chapel]

I love this S$%. I have always wanted this to happen and the way Winick is doing and has explianed his reasoning behind it.....That one issue made me go back and buy all the back issues of Batman(I stoped reading after wargames)

[Kevin Reeves]

From the first inclinations that Jason Todd could be returning, I've been a firm believer that a good writer (writer team?) could pull this off, if they made it cool enough. Sure, his death helped define the Batman as an even darker, sadder character...but that was for what? 15 years or something? It's time for a change, & if it's handled the way I hope & trust, this will possibly be an even harsher slap in the face than had Jason Todd simply just died, all those years ago. I say, bring on the plot twists! Who knows how Jason has deluded himself all these years...does he think of himself as a hero, a villain, or neither? Does he consider Bruce Wayne AND the Joker to both be some sort of twisted parents to his current incarnation? Was he captured & brainwashed by someone? Who knows...lots of tantalizing possibilities...

[Magnus2k]

Well I've always been a firm believer in NOT bringing back Jason, but if thats the plan, I'll go with it and hope it turns out for the best. I dont think its a good idea, but if handled well I'd love to be proven wrong.

[Cardiac]

Well I've always been a firm believer in NOT bringing back Jason, but if thats the plan, I'll go with it and hope it turns out for the best. I dont think its a good idea, but if handled well I'd love to be proven wrong.

Ditto. My thoughts exactly.

[jonsnow]

Ok, so what I need now is some help on this story. We saw Red Hood and Bats fighting way back at the beginning of issue #635, but right after that scene it goes into flashback, which seemed to be the rest of the Under the Hood arc. So now in #639 [spoiler]Batman is obviosuly suspicious, but does he know Red Hood is Jason yet? Has the fight between the two where they become unmasked occured? or is Winnick writing us up to that event?

[bugsypal86]

As I'm reading it we have not gotten to the battle at the beginning of the arc. We are still waiting to get back to the unmasking of Red Hood in front of Batman.

[Downfall]

I don't think Red Hood is all that evil. Or at least he has some morals. I mean, he killed those drug dealers who were selling to kids.

Just my thoughts.

[AmazingMattMan]

same. hes more of an anti-hero really. he just wants to get the job done, then not worry about it, by whatever means he sees fit.

[klwiggs]

I think Red Hood sometimes does the wrong things for the right reasons. It seems he is willing to cross that line Batman won't cross in order to get what he wants.

[cv_otaku]

I'm not sure that I'm enjoying this arc that much. I guess it could be really good, if Winick pulls it off. I'm just not sure he can.

Basically put, if he does it well, it will be the strongest story in the DC year. If he doesn't, it will make a lot of bat-fans question whether or not they continue collecting.

Personally? I think I'll continue to read it just to see how it pans out. It brings up a lot of questions that need to be answers.