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bones
April 14th 2005, 03:10 AM
Ignoring Post-Crisis retcons for the moment, high-profile members of the Silver Age JLA in the comics of the 1960s included:

Superman (Clark)
Batman (Bruce)
Wonder Woman (Diana)
Aquaman (Arthur, or later Orin)
Atom (Ray)
Martian Manhunter (J'onn)
Hawkman (Katar)
Green Arrow (Oliver)
Green Lantern (Hal)
Flash (Barry)

Barry Allen, of course, was killed off in "Crisis on Infinite Earths" in 1985. He was soon replaced by Wally West, his former sidekick as "Kid Flash." Now, at first glance that seems like no big deal. After all, nearly everyone else on that list has at some time been:

A) killed off for more than a couple of issues, or
B) replaced in the role by a younger character for more than a couple of issues, or
C) both A and B!

Except that for everyone else, it proved to be a temporary condition. In Hal Jordan's case, that temporary condition lasted about 11 years, but that's still "temporary" instead of "permanent," right?

I'm not sure if the Martian Manhunter has ever been killed off, but I gather in the 70s and early 80s he would go several years at a time in Comic Book Limbo, with a rare appearance or two on special occasions. Also, I think he once left the JLA in the early 90s and then basically "replaced himself" by disguising himself as a new hero named Bloodwynd. Does that count?

But ignoring that . . . almost everybody else except Barry has either died or otherwise quit his superhero identity for awhile, and later come back. Is it possible that Barry Allen has become the Token Permanent Death? The Sole Martyr to the idea that "anything can happen at DC, even a big name dying and staying dead"?

Perhaps DC has left him dead all these years so that they have at least ONE example they can proudly wave in our faces of a high-profile superhero, a founding member of the Silver Age JLA and all that, who "really and truly" died and has stayed that way ever since. So that when fans complain that death doesn't really seem to mean anything except a way to give us a sudden shock, and then undo it a few years later, DC editors can say, "Hey, wait a minute! We did sacrifice a Major Character once and let him stay dead for the next couple of decades! Remember Barry Allen? And besides him, there was . . . um, let me think . . . there was . . . well, the point is that Barry Allen serves as a great example of how serious we can be about the death of a Big Name Superhero when we really set our minds to it!"

If I'm right, this could mean that Barry is just about the ONLY dead superhero who will NEVER come back, because as long as DC has his Permanent Death to point to, they figure they can get away with bringing back anyone and everyone else. What do you think?

Blake Petit
April 14th 2005, 09:27 AM
I think you're reading too much into it. When Superman and Wonder Woman died, there was never any intention of leaving them dead, the return was always in the works. Green Arrow's resurrection came about because creators and fans alike wanted him back. Part of Hawkman's story is that he will be perpetually reincarnated throughout time, so a return from the dead for him is no big deal, and Aquaman's return was forced on DC by Time/Warner, who owns the company, because he was showing up in the Justice League cartoon. When Hal died they intended to keep him dead, but eventually caved to the people who cried about it for 10 years.

Barry is a different story. His death was intended to be permanent and there's been no groundswell to bring him back -- in fact, most Flash fans would be firmly against it. He had one of the greatest deaths in comic books, and resurrecting him would cheapen that. Furthermore, he had a successor that was universally accepted as being the "heir to the throne," as it were. The problem a lot of people had with Kyle Rayner replacing Hal was that he literally came out of nowhere and got the job. Wally had spent years at Barry's side and had earned the right to be the new Flash.

Beyond that, the Flash line has come to symbolize legacy at DC. Jay Garrick passed the torch to Barry Allen who passed the torch to Wally West who will eventually pass the torch to someone else. Bart Allen is next in line. Fans know that, and that's part of what makes the Flash concept so great.

WhereIsTony
April 14th 2005, 12:39 PM
Marvel seems adamant against bringing Mar-vell, Toro, or bucky back

Blake Petit
April 14th 2005, 12:49 PM
Actually, Toro WAS brought back.

Mar-Vell is (probably) permanently dead. But the only two characters in comics I would make book on NEVER coming back to life are Bucky and Ben Parker.

LEGENDKILLER
April 14th 2005, 12:52 PM
We all know Barry isnt dead, He just went to another universe, and changed his name to Buried Alien. :flash:

But im glad that DC has not brought him back, his death was classic and to me the most heroic ever. To have him show up again would be cheap, and one of the bigger mistakes DC could do to the Flash series.
However I wouldnt mind if Barry showed up in Flash for a issue or two as a ghost or on one of Wally's travels through time.

Blake Petit
April 14th 2005, 01:02 PM
Actually, that's happened a couple of times too. In fact, the last time he showed up (in Flash #200), he foreshadowed that he would meet Wally one last time, in Wally's darkest hour. It was in Wally's future, but Barry's past, see, because he was traveling through time and... Oh, you get it.

:flash:

WhereIsTony
April 14th 2005, 01:18 PM
Actually, Toro WAS brought back.

Mar-Vell is (probably) permanently dead. But the only two characters in comics I would make book on NEVER coming back to life are Bucky and Ben Parker.

Of course PAD did tongue-in0cheek imply that bucky was aggamemnon

Chapel
April 14th 2005, 03:34 PM
Of course PAD did tongue-in0cheek imply that bucky was aggamemnon

lol seriously?

Walt Kneeland
April 19th 2005, 12:12 PM
Beyond that, the Flash line has come to symbolize legacy at DC. Jay Garrick passed the torch to Barry Allen who passed the torch to Wally West who will eventually pass the torch to someone else. Bart Allen is next in line. Fans know that, and that's part of what makes the Flash concept so great.

Maybe subconsciously, that's one of the things I like about the character/series. I'm a sucker for stuff like that. It's one thing I enjoyed about some of the Captain Marvel stuff: Genis having this legacy to live up to and such.

But then, I've also been accused of being a romantic, so whatever that buys you.

~Walt

WhereIsTony
February 13th 2008, 10:48 AM
Actually, that's happened a couple of times too. In fact, the last time he showed up (in Flash #200), he foreshadowed that he would meet Wally one last time, in Wally's darkest hour. It was in Wally's future, but Barry's past, see, because he was traveling through time and... Oh, you get it.

:flash:

Well so much for the bucy and Bart theories.

So has anyone stayed dead besides Barry "fast forward" notwithstanding

khazra reborn
March 2nd 2008, 12:31 PM
Uncle ben is still dead right? i thought he was one of the permadeaths of comics.

Arsenal7
March 3rd 2008, 03:56 PM
Gwen Stacy? and Uncle Ben is still dead, too. Both from AMS- interesting or coincidence?

WhereIsTony
May 1st 2008, 11:00 PM
Well looks like that token is getting cashed in

Ryan Broussard
May 2nd 2008, 02:10 AM
Well looks like that token is getting cashed in

yeah, I am def done with DC....At this moment now I only get both all star books and Teen Titans year 1...........probably within 6 months I will be completely done with DC which has not happened since I was a kid.....

Sad part is I don't really miss any of the books I dropped........

there was a time when I thought DC was great to my dismay....I was getting up to 12 titles from DC and now I only get 3 and none of those are in continuity...

All I really look forward to now in DC is Kunkels Shazam