What did Batman do that was so bad?

[Chapel]

So Batman built a Spy Satalite....so freaken what? Superboy had glasses that gave him vision powers equal to Superman, what the difference? Batman's satalite does the same thing all his other gadjets do, it extends his abilities into the relm of Superhuman.

Someone found his satalite, upgraded it, and used it to kill people....big freaken whoop. I mean its not like Batman


DESTROYED the laws of truth and causality(*coughWWcough*)

or

TELEPORTED millions of people in to the phatom zone where they were stranded in a world recreated in his own image(*coughSupermancough*)

You since we are blaming people for building the weapons that are used to hurt people and then losing track of them, how about we blame:

the atom for BUILDING the device that let his wife bypass the best security in the world and murder Sue and Jack? I mean he built and then he loss track of it and someone else to control of it....guess thats gross criminal neglegance of his part right?

[Cardiac]

The fact that his peers have made some questionable decisions in the recennt past does not excuse Batman. He made a vast, high-powered, and virtually unstoppable, satellite network to spy on his friends. It's clearly capable of spying on anyone on Earth. Batman has no right to do that.

[Fanatix]

oh come on.

How about the fact it got blue beetle killed!
Booster gold was right, it is batmans fault for building weapons and then losing them to the leagues foes and its not the first time its happaned. Only this time it was a spy satelite that broke just about every civil right anywhere. Those two facts combine to show an incredibly bad side of bats, a man with insane paranoia instead of the peak of human intellect.

And supermans thing happaned during azzarello's god forsaken storyline so it doesn't count.

The atom was betrayed by his wife, bats wasn't betrayed, his motives were completly selfish making it his fault he lost it.

[Cardiac]

The atom was betrayed by his wife, bats wasn't betrayed, his motives were completly selfish making it his fault he lost it.

How were Batman's motives selfish? He wasn't trying to protect himself.

[AmazingMattMan]

i dont think the fact that bats built the satilite. but it is his fault for losing control of that satilite. its kinda like a parent leaving the loaded gun in plain sight and the kid blows his face off. hmmm maybe not the nicest analogy but get what i mean?

[Fanatix]

How were Batman's motives selfish? He wasn't trying to protect himself.

YES HE WAS!
He's said it himself, that he built the satelites to make sure nothing like the mind erasing would happen to HIM again. So he could watch the activities of everybody all the time, with the help of a rouge government agency.

Even in the tower of babel arc, the weapons he built against the flash and other heroes were meant to save people if those heroes ever went crazy. The omac satelites are essentially a weapon showing how in need of control he's become.

And I say this as one of batmans biggest fans, but this whole thing has turned him from the badass detective of hush and bats/supes arcs to a paranoid lunatic. He's pretty much become lex luthor, hes just not willing to shoot somebody himself and is crossing the line in way too many ways.

Its only affirmed that I think tim drake and dick will probably end up surpassing bruce as heroes.

[Cardiac]

First off, he didn't enlist Checkmate. They stole the tech.

Secondly, Batman was prompted to creat Brother Eye because his mind had been tampered with. I suppose that can be interpreted as a selfish reason, but I believe it's a little more complex. I suggest that Batman built Brother Eye to protect himself, since he sees himself as a kind of sentinel/watchman and as such worries about a world without him in it. Bruce has an almighty ego, and anything he creates to protect him he sees as protecting the world at large. In this sense, his motives remained immoral, but not selfish.

[Terry Verticchio]

Bats should have realised that no matter how benign his intentions his satilite would have been usurped by the bad guys eventually...sheesh, that's one of the tenants of comic books, just like robots running amok.

[Downfall]

Bats should have realised that no matter how benign his intentions his satilite would have been usurped by the bad guys eventually...sheesh, that's one of the tenants of comic books, just like robots running amok.
Co-signed, I mean you'd have thought the Ras Al Ghul thing would have been an eye opener...

And I mean, he decided to do this stuff, the files on the JLA, the spy satellite, without even telling them.

[TNC]

oh come on.

How about the fact it got blue beetle killed!
Booster gold was right, it is batmans fault for building weapons and then losing them to the leagues foes and its not the first time its happaned. Only this time it was a spy satelite that broke just about every civil right anywhere. Those two facts combine to show an incredibly bad side of bats, a man with insane paranoia instead of the peak of human intellect.

And supermans thing happaned during azzarello's god forsaken storyline so it doesn't count.

The atom was betrayed by his wife, bats wasn't betrayed, his motives were completly selfish making it his fault he lost it.

Whoa whoa WHOA....

Superman "TELEPORTED millions of people in to the phatom zone where they were stranded in a world recreated in his own image" and it doesn't COUNT?!?

Come on now...

I'm not sure how to respond to this because I'm not sure if it was sarcasm or not. What Batman did was WRONG, but not anymore wrong than what Superman, Wonder Woman and dozens of other Superheroes have done recently or in the past. To hold Batman accountable and not the others is showing bias and just plain wrong.

Also why should Batman have "known" his device would be taken control by the enemies. I'm SURE he DIDN'T THINK it would get hi-jacked, but it did. I mean, does that mean he should give up just because the bad guys will "one-up" him? No, he just needs to stay one step ahead of them. Batman's failure was him not warning his allies of the impending danger coming their way.

[Terry Verticchio]

Batman's failure was him not warning his allies of the impending danger coming their way.

Ah there's the rub...

What if he had, don't think the others would have been a little pissed. To be honest this entire Brother Eye thing transcends a mind-wipe, Bats put in harm's way all the loved ones of every hero on earth. That to me is unconscionable. A hero's main concern has always been keeping family out of the cross-fire.

Remember what your mother always said "Two wrongs don't make a right." Now have some cookies and milk and don't forget to put Perez's IC cover on your pull list, dearies. ;)

[Cardiac]

Ah there's the rub...

What if he had, don't think the others would have been a little pissed. To be honest this entire Brother Eye thing transcends a mind-wipe, Bats put in harm's way all the loved ones of every hero on earth. That to me is unconscionable. A hero's main concern has always been keeping family out of the cross-fire.

Remember what your mother always said "Two wrongs don't make a right." Now have some cookies and milk and don't forget to put Perez's IC cover on your pull list, dearies. ;)

Co-signed.
:)

[Chapel]

The fact that his peers have made some questionable decisions in the recennt past does not excuse Batman. He made a vast, high-powered, and virtually unstoppable, satellite network to spy on his friends. It's clearly capable of spying on anyone on Earth. Batman has no right to do that.

Bull. Oracle's whole identity is based off of exactly that kind of invasion of privacy. She is not unaware of the moral ramifications of what she does, she and every other Super that makes use of her just doesn't care.(as shown by the Savant Storyline)
What exactly does Brother One do that Superman is incapable of doing? Or Supergirl for that matter and soon to be Superboy? Governments make use of spy sattalites all the time, how is Batman building his own network any less moral than Oracle(or countless other techie superheros) hacking into existing Spysatalite networks?


How about the fact it got blue beetle killed!
Booster gold was right, it is batmans fault for building weapons and then losing them to the leagues foes and its not the first time its happaned. Only this time it was a spy satelite that broke just about every civil right anywhere. Those two facts combine to show an incredibly bad side of bats, a man with insane paranoia instead of the peak of human intellect.

And supermans thing happaned during azzarello's god forsaken storyline so it doesn't count.

The atom was betrayed by his wife, bats wasn't betrayed, his motives were completly selfish making it his fault he lost it.

How about the fact "it" got Sue and Jack killed? Once again Superhero's do not respect peoples civil rights.....none of them. And its only paranoia if they are not out to get you.

The Superman thing did happen. His old fortress is destroyed in all of the Superman titles, the events of that Storyline(including his fight with WW) are cannon.

So if the satalite had been taken over by Jason Todd then Batman would be in the clear? Or how about the "Tower of Bable" storyline? Batman was "betrayed by Talia or that story would have never happend" Its Bat's free from blame for those events then? Bat's wasn't betrayed..he was robbed. Someone came to his house and stole his guns, and BATMAN is supposed to be responsible for what those guns did. I mean do you realy think Batman built Brother One with built- in OMAC capability? Do you honestly believe Batman found Booster Gold's robat friend, murdered it, and then used it for parts to gain advatange of future-tech?


i dont think the fact that bats built the satilite. but it is his fault for losing control of that satilite. its kinda like a parent leaving the loaded gun in plain sight and the kid blows his face off. hmmm maybe not the nicest analogy but get what i mean?
No I don't get what you mean. Are you honestly trying to say that Batman is responsible for anyone who gets murdered with a Battarang? Or that Iron Man is responsible when people steal the designs for his armor? Or that if Hydra had succeeded Reed Richards would have been responsible for the damage they did? Or how about Superman? He didn't "build" his body but he did build up the skillset that made him so damaging under Max's control is he responsible for what happened as well?

YES HE WAS!
He's said it himself, that he built the satelites to make sure nothing like the mind erasing would happen to HIM again. So he could watch the activities of everybody all the time, with the help of a rouge government agency.

Even in the tower of babel arc, the weapons he built against the flash and other heroes were meant to save people if those heroes ever went crazy. The omac satelites are essentially a weapon showing how in need of control he's become.

And I say this as one of batmans biggest fans, but this whole thing has turned him from the badass detective of hush and bats/supes arcs to a paranoid lunatic. He's pretty much become lex luthor, hes just not willing to shoot somebody himself and is crossing the line in way too many ways.

Its only affirmed that I think tim drake and dick will probably end up surpassing bruce as heroes.

So what? He wanted to make sure his "friends" wouldn't screw him over again. The only thing Bruce completely trust in this life is his mind. His "friends" took that from him. Exacltly what other way could he re-secure the objectivity of his own mind without a backup source? And why is the fact that he did it to protect himself such a big deal? Why does that make him a bad guy. Somebody rapes you, you do everything in your power to make sure it never happens again. And Batman did NOT enlist checkmates help...they stole the technology from him and then made Sunificant "improvements" to it.

How is build failsafes against hero's going rouge a bad thing? If anything the Tower of Bable arc is where the seeds of Batman's failings were sown. After the arc Batman decieded to Trust his "Friends". They assured him that his caution was parinoia and that if any one of them went rouge he(Batman) did not need to carry the weight of stopping them alone. THEY LIED. Batman stopped making failsafes and starting working with others and when push came to shove they dropped the ball.
Superman and Batman have been planning for the inevitablity of someone successfully mindcontroling him for Decades. I am sure that fact that Batman would be Superman's first target didn't escape the relm of him planning. But when the inevitable did happen, and Superman was mind controled did the League open up Batman's play book and proceede from there? No the League did what they always do when they are Top Heavy...they tried to smash the problem. The problem was bigger than them and they got wrecked. Batmam's friends said they could trust them, that he didn't need to worry, that they could handle it together...they were wrong and Batman was right....as usual.

Once again you are not parinoid if they are really out to get you. The one thing this arc and the events in War Crimes has proved is that Batman isn't pariniod enough. And if he wants him and his children to survive in the new world he his going to have to step his and their game up.

Bats should have realised that no matter how benign his intentions his satilite would have been usurped by the bad guys eventually...sheesh, that's one of the tenants of comic books, just like robots running amok.
Why should he have thought that bad guys would A)Steal his tech and the B)use tecnology FROM THE FUTURE to make his technology lethal and beyond his means to stop?
What about Jason Todd, Tim Drake, or Dick Grayson? Should batman not have trained them because eventually they would grow up to be murderers(well tim drake isn't yet, but scans of the future show....)
How about Superman? Should he have just but a Kryptonie bullet in his skull to prevent him from being used for evil. Seems to me you are saying the same thing Max Lord is saying: "Bats should have realised that no matter how benign their intentions the Superheroes would have been usurped by the bad guys eventually...sheesh, that's one of the tenants of comic books, just like robots running amok."

And I mean, he decided to do this stuff, the files on the JLA, the spy satellite, without even telling them.
Cause his "Hey Superman I have got about 10 different plans to destroy you" plan worked so well. If you tell the person you have a way to stop them not only does it lessen the effective of the counter messure-because now they can think of ways to counter ti-but it also assured that when they do go crazy they will make sure to open your chest up first.

Ah there's the rub...

What if he had, don't think the others would have been a little pissed. To be honest this entire Brother Eye thing transcends a mind-wipe, Bats put in harm's way all the loved ones of every hero on earth. That to me is unconscionable. A hero's main concern has always been keeping family out of the cross-fire.

Remember what your mother always said "Two wrongs don't make a right." Now have some cookies and milk and don't forget to put Perez's IC cover on your pull list, dearies.

He put them in danger? Look if we assume for a moment that Batman built Brother One with it current capabilities(an improbabilty but bare with me) then Superhero families could not be any more safe. They would have known instantly who killed Sue, they could have know instantly which of the JL's family members the Villians were attacking, they would know where Lex Luther and his Society are planning their moves. Batman could have kept an "eye" on all the loved ones at Superheros at all times.

As it stands all Batman did was give himself "supersenses" on par with any Kryptonian and being "watched from the sky" is a lot less invasive then X-ray Vision, or Oracle going through you Bank Records, Emma Frost reading your mind, or Wonder Woman by-passing your free will.

[AmazingMattMan]

i think batman could be blamed for building a crap sat. seriously think about it, wasnt it supposed to watch out for heros gone rogue. and what is max?!?! a hero gone rogue!!! so not only does it not prevent anything it gets taken over by that same ex-hero!!! pfft. :banana:

[TNC]

Bull. Oracle's whole identity is based off of exactly that kind of invasion of privacy. She is not unaware of the moral ramifications of what she does, she and every other Super that makes use of her just doesn't care.(as shown by the Savant Storyline)
What exactly does Brother One do that Superman is incapable of doing? Or Supergirl for that matter and soon to be Superboy? Governments make use of spy sattalites all the time, how is Batman building his own network any less moral than Oracle(or countless other techie superheros) hacking into existing Spysatalite networks?



How about the fact "it" got Sue and Jack killed? Once again Superhero's do not respect peoples civil rights.....none of them. And its only paranoia if they are not out to get you.

The Superman thing did happen. His old fortress is destroyed in all of the Superman titles, the events of that Storyline(including his fight with WW) are cannon.

So if the satalite had been taken over by Jason Todd then Batman would be in the clear? Or how about the "Tower of Bable" storyline? Batman was "betrayed by Talia or that story would have never happend" Its Bat's free from blame for those events then? Bat's wasn't betrayed..he was robbed. Someone came to his house and stole his guns, and BATMAN is supposed to be responsible for what those guns did. I mean do you realy think Batman built Brother One with built- in OMAC capability? Do you honestly believe Batman found Booster Gold's robat friend, murdered it, and then used it for parts to gain advatange of future-tech?


No I don't get what you mean. Are you honestly trying to say that Batman is responsible for anyone who gets murdered with a Battarang? Or that Iron Man is responsible when people steal the designs for his armor? Or that if Hydra had succeeded Reed Richards would have been responsible for the damage they did? Or how about Superman? He didn't "build" his body but he did build up the skillset that made him so damaging under Max's control is he responsible for what happened as well?


So what? He wanted to make sure his "friends" wouldn't screw him over again. The only thing Bruce completely trust in this life is his mind. His "friends" took that from him. Exacltly what other way could he re-secure the objectivity of his own mind without a backup source? And why is the fact that he did it to protect himself such a big deal? Why does that make him a bad guy. Somebody rapes you, you do everything in your power to make sure it never happens again. And Batman did NOT enlist checkmates help...they stole the technology from him and then made Sunificant "improvements" to it.

How is build failsafes against hero's going rouge a bad thing? If anything the Tower of Bable arc is where the seeds of Batman's failings were sown. After the arc Batman decieded to Trust his "Friends". They assured him that his caution was parinoia and that if any one of them went rouge he(Batman) did not need to carry the weight of stopping them alone. THEY LIED. Batman stopped making failsafes and starting working with others and when push came to shove they dropped the ball.
Superman and Batman have been planning for the inevitablity of someone successfully mindcontroling him for Decades. I am sure that fact that Batman would be Superman's first target didn't escape the relm of him planning. But when the inevitable did happen, and Superman was mind controled did the League open up Batman's play book and proceede from there? No the League did what they always do when they are Top Heavy...they tried to smash the problem. The problem was bigger than them and they got wrecked. Batmam's friends said they could trust them, that he didn't need to worry, that they could handle it together...they were wrong and Batman was right....as usual.

Once again you are not parinoid if they are really out to get you. The one thing this arc and the events in War Crimes has proved is that Batman isn't pariniod enough. And if he wants him and his children to survive in the new world he his going to have to step his and their game up.


Why should he have thought that bad guys would A)Steal his tech and the B)use tecnology FROM THE FUTURE to make his technology lethal and beyond his means to stop?
What about Jason Todd, Tim Drake, or Dick Grayson? Should batman not have trained them because eventually they would grow up to be murderers(well tim drake isn't yet, but scans of the future show....)
How about Superman? Should he have just but a Kryptonie bullet in his skull to prevent him from being used for evil. Seems to me you are saying the same thing Max Lord is saying: "Bats should have realised that no matter how benign their intentions the Superheroes would have been usurped by the bad guys eventually...sheesh, that's one of the tenants of comic books, just like robots running amok."


Cause his "Hey Superman I have got about 10 different plans to destroy you" plan worked so well. If you tell the person you have a way to stop them not only does it lessen the effective of the counter messure-because now they can think of ways to counter ti-but it also assured that when they do go crazy they will make sure to open your chest up first.


He put them in danger? Look if we assume for a moment that Batman built Brother One with it current capabilities(an improbabilty but bare with me) then Superhero families could not be any more safe. They would have known instantly who killed Sue, they could have know instantly which of the JL's family members the Villians were attacking, they would know where Lex Luther and his Society are planning their moves. Batman could have kept an "eye" on all the loved ones at Superheros at all times.

As it stands all Batman did was give himself "supersenses" on par with any Kryptonian and being "watched from the sky" is a lot less invasive then X-ray Vision, or Oracle going through you Bank Records, Emma Frost reading your mind, or Wonder Woman by-passing your free will.


word!!!

:yes:

[Magnus2k]

A 120 pound woman is brutaly raped by 3 men who are co-workers weighing in at 210 pounds. She has to live her life in fear now, not only cause she was raped, but because it was done by men she knew and possibly trusted. So she installs a high tech security system at her house and may now be leary of any friends she has or comes into contact with. Its nature.

Same scenario.

Batman had his mind wiped by friends. People he trusted. Some of these "friends" are some of the most powerful people on the planet. Now, if I had friends like that, and they did that to me, yet I also had billions of dollars laying around, would I form some sort of plan to try and protect myself from this happening again? Damn right.

[TNC]

A 120 pound woman is brutaly raped by 3 men who are co-workers weighing in at 210 pounds. She has to live her life in fear now, not only cause she was raped, but because it was done by men she knew and possibly trusted. So she installs a high tech security system at her house and may now be leary of any friends she has or comes into contact with. Its nature.

Same scenario.

Batman had his mind wiped by friends. People he trusted. Some of these "friends" are some of the most powerful people on the planet. Now, if I had friends like that, and they did that to me, yet I also had billions of dollars laying around, would I form some sort of plan to try and protect myself from this happening again? Damn right.


Word!!!! :yes:

[Cardiac]

A 120 pound woman is brutaly raped by 3 men who are co-workers weighing in at 210 pounds. She has to live her life in fear now, not only cause she was raped, but because it was done by men she knew and possibly trusted. So she installs a high tech security system at her house and may now be leary of any friends she has or comes into contact with. Its nature.

Same scenario.

Batman had his mind wiped by friends. People he trusted. Some of these "friends" are some of the most powerful people on the planet. Now, if I had friends like that, and they did that to me, yet I also had billions of dollars laying around, would I form some sort of plan to try and protect myself from this happening again? Damn right.

What you'd do, and what you'd be justified in doing, are two very different things.

[Terry Verticchio]

Sure an ordinary person may hide and be wary. No doubt I would.

But Bruce is not ordinary. No super-hero is.

I can't believe a man who swings from roof tops, solves impossible crimes and fights evil on a near daily basis would react like an ordinary person.

Bruce should have confronted, maybe gone to discuss things with Clark and Diana, as they were not part of it. But to spy on those who had nothing to do with it, especially on Clark, his one stalwart friend and thereby put Clark's loved ones in jeopardy in harms way in the process, that, to me, is not the act of hero.

As well, being the man he is, he should have considered the possibility that Brother Eye could have been taken over by outside forces. Which should have been enough of a deterent for him to re-consider the entire venture.

But he didn't...

[Mark Blicharz]

Here's the only thing that needs to be said in response to your question, Chapel. Batman put the lives of everyone's family, you know the ones without superpowers, in harms way. By him building that satellite, every member of every superhero's family was at risk, including Alfred. With all that information, Max Lord or anyone that got their hands on the information could maim and kill their families at will, held them to make the heroes do whatever they wanted. He should have learned his lesson in Tower of Babel. This was to protect him, no one else.

[Zentinal]

Here's the only thing that needs to be said in response to your question, Chapel. Batman put the lives of everyone's family, you know the ones without superpowers, in harms way. By him building that satellite, every member of every superhero's family was at risk, including Alfred. With all that information, Max Lord or anyone that got their hands on the information could maim and kill their families at will, held them to make the heroes do whatever they wanted. He should have learned his lesson in Tower of Babel. This was to protect him, no one else.

Batman overreacted. The guy was virtually raped. It all shows how human he is. He does more than one man is expected. Perhaps he did go too far this time.
Still, the guy still has my respect for all he has done.
One good thing for the superhumans to learn from this - don't ever mess with the Bat!

[Mark Blicharz]

Batman always overreacts. This time he could have gotten innocent people killed. He's just as bit guilty as anyone Max Lord.

[Magnus2k]

The hell he is. These people violated him as a person, and most importantly as a friend! I agree with you on most things Goku, but I cant here. The man already had issues, being betrayed by people he trusted didnt help. Not only did they do it, but they hid it from him. They could have came to him and said "Look, we F'd up, and we're terribly sorry." But they couldnt even do that. He had more reason to do this than he did Tower of Babel. In Babel, he did it to have something set up in case the league was taken over again. At least if that happened, there are still the JSA, Titans, other heros. In the case of his friends turning on him however, there is NOBODY! He cant trust em. And the superman thing. If you recall, GA said in Crisis that he hears what he wants to hear. Superman knew in my opinion. Why didnt he tell Bruce? I'd be leary of everyone as well.

[Mark Blicharz]

Leary and spying on every hero, regardless of whether they are in the JLA or not, are two totally different things. Batman went way overboard and put every non-powered relative and friend in harm's way so nothing would happen to him again. He was just as wrong as anyone else. The JLA was wrong for doing it, however, they didn't put innocents in the path of villains like Bruce did. On top of that, that satellite now controls thousands of OMACs which have people inside to kill the other heroes. Without building that satellite, none of this happens. Batman did something far worse then Diana killing Max Lord.

[Terry Verticchio]

Leary and spying on every hero, regardless of whether they are in the JLA or not, are two totally different things. Batman went way overboard and put every non-powered relative and friend in harm's way so nothing would happen to him again. He was just as wrong as anyone else. The JLA was wrong for doing it, however, they didn't put innocents in the path of villains like Bruce did. On top of that, that satellite now controls thousands of OMACs which have people inside to kill the other heroes. Without building that satellite, none of this happens. Batman did something far worse then Diana killing Max Lord.

I agree...

Maybe if Bats had spied on only the six heroes that hurt him, maybe I'd accept that. But once under Max's control, he could have modified the system to spy on everybody. There are too many variables to justify Bruce's paranoia.

[Mark Blicharz]

Bruce set the satellite to do that from the outset. Max just took it, used all the info and because of that info, Red Rocket and Blue Beetle are dead. He's directly responsible for those two dieing.

[TNC]

Here's the only thing that needs to be said in response to your question, Chapel. Batman put the lives of everyone's family, you know the ones without superpowers, in harms way. By him building that satellite, every member of every superhero's family was at risk, including Alfred. With all that information, Max Lord or anyone that got their hands on the information could maim and kill their families at will, held them to make the heroes do whatever they wanted. He should have learned his lesson in Tower of Babel. This was to protect him, no one else.

But Batman didn't do anything that Superman, J'onn or Oracle did...

They all have files, info and connections on everyone else, just as Batman does. The only difference is that Batman is usually a lot more thorough with his info.

[Cardiac]

There's a significant difference between gathering information, and gathering information constantly, about everyone. It's all about the degrees to which each of them do the same thing.

[TNC]

There's a significant difference between gathering information, and gathering information constantly, about everyone. It's all about the degrees to which each of them do the same thing.

Your right!!!!

One is doing it thuroughly while the other is half-assing it!! :LOL:

But for real, I mean the only difference is the extent of the information and honestly, we don't KNOW just HOW MUCH info each character has. For all we know, Batman's sateilites and info might PALE in comparision to J'onn's. Batman gathering the info wasn't what he did wrong, it was him losing control of that info and not telling anyone.

[Mark Blicharz]

But Batman didn't do anything that Superman, J'onn or Oracle did...

They all have files, info and connections on everyone else, just as Batman does. The only difference is that Batman is usually a lot more thorough with his info.

There's a massive difference between having files and using them to make plans against your friends to take them down if need arises. And then having those files stolen due to arrogance and having them used to build an army of OMACs that have protocols to beat all of the heroes.

[TNC]

There's a massive difference between having files and using them to make plans against your friends to take them down if need arises. And then having those files stolen due to arrogance and having them used to build an army of OMACs that have protocols to beat all of the heroes.

Well, in Batman's defense the OMACs weren't something he built. Also, J'onn has plans to take down the JLA in his files as well, but I DO agree that Batman shouldn't have allowed his files to be stolen, if there was a way to prevent it....

Honestly, I think that is a HUGE story flaw here. I mean, HOW could Batman ALLOW something like that to fall in the wrong hands and he not even KNOW about it?!?

[Mark Blicharz]

He knew about it, just didn't know who did it yet and is too arrogant to ask for help. He's the Doom of DCU without all the evil. Batman didn't build the OMACs, but Brother 1 did and Batman built that with the express purpose of spying on every superhero on the planet, regardless of who mindwiped him. He put his files in a place anyone could get to if they knew where to look. It was arrogance and I stick by my guns that Red Rocket and Blue Beetle died due to his arrogance.

[Ammar Al Subahi]

the DCU must have the most stupid characters ever.

If you ask me, the JLA only got themselves to blame. They know that Batman is a jerk, he's done jerky stuff to them before, he's always being a jerk. And when he FINALLY lives up to this stupid image he created for himself (Another discussion) they get pissed and surprised by it...even though he's done stuff like that before. If anything, the JLA is to be blamed for not putting Batman down like a rabid dog a long time ago

[Terry Verticchio]

Not so much 'put him down' as slap him around the head a bit...tell Bruce to get a girlfriend (not Selina) and just relax. Its time for Bruce to put this obsessive compulsive behaviour behind him, at least for a while.

[Ammar Al Subahi]

slap his head? This guy needs a serious beating. That's why I have come to dislike DC and Batman, their characters (and especially Batman) get blown out of proportion. It seems as if everyone in teh superhero community is afraid of Batman, even though he really isn't squat to them.

If Batman did "his" schtick in the MU then the Thing would drag him by the cape and haul his behind to Yancy Street where he would get dropped and mugged by the local street gangs.

[Mark Blicharz]

The superhero community isn't scared of him. Well the big guns aren't. The street level guys have a reason to be.

[Fanatix]

Okay so I’ve been thinking about this for a little while. If you look at the first page you can definitely see I was on the "batman f'd up really badly!" side of the argument. And my reasons pretty much got beat up and I didn't have a come back. I still don't, it’s just a gut feeling that he did something bad.

But...that’s not really what it’s about. We can argue if what batman did was right or wrong, and if what the JLA did was right or wrong.

Infinite crisis is paved with good intentions, just like the road to hell.
The JLA are heroes, some of the best in either marvel or dc. And I’m not talking about how powerful or smart they are, but their character. They have more belief in justice than the world they protect. They save lives, planets, universes. Their heroes and the dc universe need them. There’s always been the argument that the super villain only exists because of the superhero, but that’s not true. The villains would still be there, there just wouldn’t be anybody able to stop them.

The world needs a JLA not afraid for their loved ones so they can operate and keep fighting the fight. So they erased the memories of bad guys, they lobotomized villains to reduce the threat level to their families. It’s completely logical and completely deplorable at the same time. They mind wiped Batman so he wouldn't tear the league down.
And batman would, he knows the world needs these super beings to work together, but he would bring down half the league for what they were doing.

So now batman watches his and everybody else’s backs. He builds satellites that can look anywhere, hack into any system, exist everywhere so he can keep track on the world’s heroes so they can't hurt him again.

The only argument I have left that this was a mistake is that he's done it before. Oracles kept (and still keeps) files on the worlds heroes, but everybody knows it, they know she’s the person to call if they need help with a specific situation. J'onn destroyed his files (i think, correct me if I’m wrong but I’m 80% sure i read in a secret files he destroyed his files). Batman didn't, he’s used them to create safeguards that have been stolen before and didn't learn from it. He should have learnt from the past and realized it was a mistake. That’s all I can think off.

The DC universe is becoming a world of grays. So I think it is beginning to polarize people into people who thought what batman did was necessary and those that saw it as evil. A metaphor essentially for those who like the grays and understand them, and those that still wants to see the world in black and white.

[S.A. Parvaze]

Many of you have used the argument that Batman didn't learn from his mistakes in Tower of Babel. Has when Batman built the Brother MK I system actually be revealed?

[Fanatix]

Huh?
Are you asking if/when it was revealed that batman built the omac satelites?

I'm pretty sure he confessed to it in omac #2. And even if he didn't build them himself, he was obviously instrumental in their design since the omac program refers to bats as the creator, not max.

[Mark Blicharz]

He admitted to building Brother, but when wasn't said. Only that it was done sometime after he figured out that his mind was altered.

[S.A. Parvaze]

I knew I should have italicized 'when'...

So it's still one of those unexplained details, eh? And I'm assuming there is also no time frame for when Batman figured out he was mind-wiped?

[Mark Blicharz]

Not really. He just had little clues along the way.