Batman isn't paranoid enough.

[Chapel]

1)He found out the first real friends he made since Gordon mindwiped him.
2)His best friend opened his chest up with heat vision and left finger prints in his skin
3)The woman who was like a mother to him and taught him what gentleness and kindness was all about killed the child he was mentoring.
4)His only friend from childhood tried to destroy him....after first saving his life.
5)The cripple he took off the street and made a new life for and gave EVERYTHING to betrayed him
6)He second child came back from the dead as a twisted nightmare of everything he taught him.......and that same child believes that Batman never really loved him.
7)The president of the united freaking states of america ordered the murder of one of his lovers.
8)The death of another of his lovers was a government cover up
9)His third lover was brainwashed by her before unknown sister into completely turning against him
10)His fourth lover was FORCED INTO LOVING HIM by the same so-called friends who mindwiped him

Its not paranoia if they really are out to get you.

[Gabriel Sosa]

Great post. Now I think everybody will think twice before saying that Batman is completely unjustified in his actions. :D
Which lovers are you talking about? The one in Number 7 is certainly Vesper Fairchild during Bruce Wayne murdere and fugitive, creation of Doug Moench if I am correct. Number 8 is Sasha Bourdeaux, "killed" during that same arc, creation of Greg Rucka, and a favorite of mine during Rucka's run. Number 9 I think is Shondra Kinsolving, another creation of Doug Moench, right before Knightfall, but I do not know if you are talking about her, since she was brainwashed by a brother, not a sister, so it might be somebody else.
Number 10 is obvious if you have been reading things on Infinite Crisis

[Chapel]

Talia was brainwashed by her sister.....its was a rather burtal sequence when her sister kept killing her and then throwing her into the lazurus pit over and over again.

[Gabriel Sosa]

Oh , you are right, I had completely forgotten about Death and The Maidens, (Rucka again) hehehe. All that non-continuous continuity thing.
Thank you. So we have two lovers brainwashed by siblings to destroy Batman.

[Ammar Al Subahi]

Talia is number ten?

[Mark Blicharz]

He's still wrong. Heroes don't act that way period.

[Gabriel Sosa]

Talia is number 9.
And I do believe Batman was justified in several of his actions, once again the only mistake he made was not making sure that it would be impossible for his failsafes and satellite to fall in the wrong hands, but Batman has every reason to be paranoid.
To set the record straight I am a Batman fan, but a rational fan at that. I have disagreed with many of his actions towards his family and friends, specially through No Man's Land and War Games, once again Batman is only human, and as a human I think he is a hero, even if I dislike several of his actions, just like I have disliked several of Wonder Woman's actions and Superman's actions, they all have made mistakes, I think that is why they are not gods, but heroes. I have disagreed with things Wally has done, and with things Ollie has done, they all have made mistake hurt the people they love, created mistrust or kept mistrust themselves. Maybe the one I have never disagreed with is J'onn J'onnz.
I mean, even Maxwell Lord had his heroic actions, he turned a villain, but people seem to complete ignore the good things he did, even though he was always a very shady character specially when first introduced by Giffen and De Matteis. That is why I do not understand the villains being upset because Maxwell Lord was killed, since he has never been part of the villain community, in fact the villains have no means to know that Max was evil, since nobody except the leaguers directly involved know it.
But Batman creating protocols and failsafes is acceptable given past experiences.

[Mark Blicharz]

Talia is number 9.
And I do believe Batman was justified in several of his actions, once again the only mistake he made was not making sure that it would be impossible for his failsafes and satellite to fall in the wrong hands, but Batman has every reason to be paranoid.
To set the record straight I am a Batman fan, but a rational fan at that. I have disagreed with many of his actions towards his family and friends, specially through No Man's Land and War Games, once again Batman is only human, and as a human I think he is a hero, even if I dislike several of his actions, just like I have disliked several of Wonder Woman's actions and Superman's actions, they all have made mistakes, I think that is why they are not gods, but heroes. I have disagreed with things Wally has done, and with things Ollie has done, they all have made mistake hurt the people they love, created mistrust or kept mistrust themselves. Maybe the one I have never disagreed with is J'onn J'onnz.
I mean, even Maxwell Lord had his heroic actions, he turned a villain, but people seem to complete ignore the good things he did, even though he was always a very shady character specially when first introduced by Giffen and De Matteis. That is why I do not understand the villains being upset because Maxwell Lord was killed, since he has never been part of the villain community, in fact the villains have no means to know that Max was evil, since nobody except the leaguers directly involved know it.
But Batman creating protocols and failsafes is acceptable given past experiences.

It wasn't that he was killed, they got mad that people were mindwiped.

[Gabriel Sosa]

I know that, hehehehe, I was making a reference to the latest Superman issue (225). Where all this fire based villains, (amongst them Scorch, btw, last time I checked she was in a comma, and was certainly a better person because of the Martian Manhunter), accused Superman and told him the rules of the game had changed because now they, the heroes, had murdered one amongst their rank Maxwell Lord. So I think Verheiden wanted to do a little literal metaphor of fighting fire with fire, but well, I believe there were major plot holes in that issue.

[Mark Blicharz]

I know that, hehehehe, I was making a reference to the latest Superman issue (225). Where all this fire based villains, (amongst them Scorch, btw, last time I checked she was in a comma, and was certainly a better person because of the Martian Manhunter), accused Superman and told him the rules of the game had changed because now they, the heroes, had murdered one amongst their rank Maxwell Lord. So I think Verheiden wanted to do a little literal metaphor of fighting fire with fire, but well, I believe there were major plot holes in that issue.

They also said they were sent by someone. They could have very well been sent by Brother Eye.

[Gabriel Sosa]

I thought they were refering to the society.
They could not have been sent by Brother Eye. It has not deviated from its programming,has not formed any alliances with any of the people it was created to destroy. In fact OMACs have eliminated every villain it has encountered. In fact if they would have been sent by brother eye, seeing how all of them have fire based poweres, Brother Eye wouldn't have killed Firefly, and have more fire power to kill Superman. Besides it seems Brother Eye has run several scenarios, and one where that group of villains were to defeat Superman would have ended in failure, a group of OMACs would have been more effective.

[Mark Blicharz]

It's possible, no idea who sent them. Scorch did say that she felt they were sent under false pretenses.

[Gabriel Sosa]

Scorch understood they were being manipulated, I think it was the Society , since Luthor wants to keep Superman busy, and has kept the society as a means to carry out his agenda, using the League's actions as false pretenses. Scorch has never been a fool, so she figured that out by herself when hearing Superman. Now again, what is Scorch doing here????

[Mark Blicharz]

She pulled a Magneto and got better. But I'm not sure Luthor sent them after Superman. He has more pressing concerns right now.

[Gabriel Sosa]

Originally posted by Mark Blicharz:
She pulled a Magneto and got better.

LOL, ROFL, now, that was REALLY funny. I am going to start using that line from now on. It should be set as a standard.
Thank you Marvel for a fountain of references.

"Hey, wasn't she unpopular?" "She pulled a Wanda"

"But didn't he look a little different last year?" "He pulled a Xorn"

And, Mark, I meant Society Luthor, who seems, under Verheiden direction, to be interested in keeping Superman busy (Blackrock stuff in Peru), because of obvious reasons :)

[Mark Blicharz]

LOL, ROFL, now, that was REALLY funny. I am going to start using that line from now on. It should be set as a standard.
Thank you Marvel for a fountain of references.

"Hey, wasn't she unpopular?" "She pulled a Wanda"

"But didn't he look a little different last year?" "He pulled a Xorn"

And, Mark, I meant Society Luthor, who seems, under Verheiden direction, to be interested in keeping Superman busy (Blackrock stuff in Peru), because of obvious reasons :)

Society Luthor is Alexander. He's dealing with other things at the moment and not worrying about Superman.

[Gabriel Sosa]

;) I know, but in Verheiden's run, he has been setting traps for Superman to keep him busy, hence sending Bizarro to recover the blackrock, sending Talia to deliver it to the woman in that peruvian prison. This attack by the fire furies might be the result of some manipulation he already had in motion. (The blackrock in the peruvian woman story ended last month if I am not mistaken).

[Mark Blicharz]

;) I know, but in Verheiden's run, he has been setting traps for Superman to keep him busy, hence sending Bizarro to recover the blackrock, sending Talia to deliver it to the woman in that peruvian prison. This attack by the fire furies might be the result of some manipulation he already had in motion. (The blackrock in the peruvian woman story ended last month if I am not mistaken).

True enough. It may wind up being Luthor. Not sold it is though. :)

[Gabriel Sosa]

I just re-read the issue, and the other two things that make me think about the society, is the fact that Bizarro was around and left right after Superman had defeated the fire wielders. The other is Scorch, said: "Stop, he said the mindwipes were over", so that kind of feels like Society's propaganda.

[Mark Blicharz]

I just re-read the issue, and the other two things that make me think about the society, is the fact that Bizarro was around and left right after Superman had defeated the fire wielders. The other is Scorch, said: "Stop, he said the mindwipes were over", so that kind of feels like Society's propaganda.

She told them to stop because she knows Superman characters and when he says something it is the truth. If he said things would have stayed the same, she would have kept fighting along with the others. She stopped out of faith in Superman's character. It's very possible that the Society is involved, just not 100% sold on it yet.

[Gabriel Sosa]

That part was completely in Character with Scorch, I did like that her response was that, since she has never been that evil, and has been shown to move in a more rational direction. And even though it has been stated she does not like Superman that much, she still trusts his judgement, that is completely in character for her. Cool points for Verheiden because of that. But I still think his Bizarron speech is just wrong. All those writers writing Bizarro should take lessons from Loeb.

[Chapel]

Wait...wait...wait. You arn't talking about the chick who was dating Martain Manhunter are you? Cause if she's back and the first thing she is worried about is mindwipes.....thats really screwed up.

[Chapel]

He's still wrong. Heroes don't act that way period.

Act what way? Did he kill anyone? NO. Did he betray anyone? NO. Did he betray his own moral code? NO.

Batman did what Batman has always done. He made plans for the worst case senerioes he could think of so that when they happened(as they ALWAYS do) he would be able to do something to save peoples lives.

He made plans to take out the JLA:
BFD! Every single one of them has been mindcontroled at least twice and ALL of them have "evil" counterparts upon whom his "fail-safes" would be as affective.

He built Spy Satallites with an advance AI
BFD! Oracle left him on his own and he need a way to gain information without her. I mean no one seems to care he has spy camera all over gotham city. No one seems to mind that Superman CONSTANTLY is in survalence of Metropolis. And no one seems to bring up that Batman can not trust his own mind to give him objective information any more. Nor can he count on his "friends" to help him if he is down.

[Gabriel Sosa]

Originally posted by Chapel:
Wait...wait...wait. You arn't talking about the chick who was dating Martain Manhunter are you? Cause if she's back and the first thing she is worried about is mindwipes.....thats really screwed up.

She is the one I am talking about !!!!!!!
Thank you, thank you, I am not alone, I knew somebody else would find it strange she would be out of the comma and not worrying about J'onn.
But her comments and her actions were completely in character with the kind of person she is.

[Mark Blicharz]

Allow me some corrections.

Act what way? Did he kill anyone?

Yes

Did he betray anyone?

Yes. Every single metahuman who had nothing to do with it. He betrayed the trust his friends, namely Superman and Diana, had in him that had nothing to do with the mind wipe. He betrayed Lois Lane, who he also spied on, who would have been outraged had she known what the JLA did. But most importantly, he betrayed the humans he swore to protect. The humans which were directly or indirectly put in danger due to the OMACs that were created by the satellite he created.

Did he betray his own moral code?

Yes, he did.

Batman did what Batman has always done. He made plans for the worst case senerioes he could think of so that when they happened(as they ALWAYS do) he would be able to do something to save peoples lives.

Cost heroes their lives and endangered their families. Who needs villains when you have friends like Batman who will make plans to beat you and put them somewhere that's not completely secure so anyone who wants can take them. It's only happened twice now. Maybe next time he can get the JLA killed or better yet, Lois, so Superman can punt him through the Batcave.

He made plans to take out the JLA:
BFD! Every single one of them has been mindcontroled at least twice and ALL of them have "evil" counterparts upon whom his "fail-safes" would be as affective.

Maybe the JLA should make plans against him. I mean, Despero just mind controlled him. But what would Bruce do? Oh yeah, he'd get paranoid that they'd get used and berate the JLA.

He built Spy Satallites with an advance AI
BFD! Oracle left him on his own and he need a way to gain information without her. I mean no one seems to care he has spy camera all over gotham city. No one seems to mind that Superman CONSTANTLY is in survalence of Metropolis. And no one seems to bring up that Batman can not trust his own mind to give him objective information any more. Nor can he count on his "friends" to help him if he is down.

Superman doesn't spy on his friends. Batman could always count on Superman. Please tell me when is the last time Batman asked for help with anything? If Batman went to Superman and ASKED SUPERMAN for aid, do you think he'd turn him away? If you say Superman would turn Batman away, you're flat out wrong. Superman isn't in constant surveilance either, he listens for specific words to help those in need AROUND THE WORLD. He listens for words such as "Help." Batman watches every step they take. He's beyond paranoid. He's obsessive compulsive and doesn't even trust himself. Trust works both ways Chapel. Batman doesn't get any because he doesn't give any.

[LeatherWings]

No, if anyone should be paranoid its Dick Grayson, after reading most of Devin Grayson's misshaps in her run, Dick needs a LONG break, I mean sure Batman's got it bad, but Nightwing's got it close, and he managed to be sane, until like the 90th issue, but yeah I'm still screaming at what Devin Grayson did to Dick over her run.

[Magnus2k]

Batman didnt kill anyone. Max Lord did. Batman didnt create the OMACs, he created Brother Eye. And before you come back with No Brother Eye, no OMACS. So what. The inventor of the gun isnt responsible for every death by gunfire. The inventor of the car isnt responsible for every death caused by a vehicle. So on and so forth.

[Mark Blicharz]

Batman didnt kill anyone. Max Lord did. Batman didnt create the OMACs, he created Brother Eye. And before you come back with No Brother Eye, no OMACS. So what. The inventor of the gun isnt responsible for every death by gunfire. The inventor of the car isnt responsible for every death caused by a vehicle. So on and so forth.

The difference is, the inventors of the gun and car most likely didn't have the plans to defeat his friends. They never had them stolen before. Batman did. Batman has been paranoid for years. He's directly put the lives of his friends in jeopardy by building that satellite and recording their lives and their weaknesses and powers. He also put their families in danger by doing so. How is it so few see how utterly wrong that is?

[Eric Barrett]

Batman may be overly paranoid, but I agree with Magnus, I don't think that's a bad thing (at least not for a comic book character!).

I don't think Batman is responsible for the OMAC deaths any more than I think the people who built the atomic bomb are responsible for deaths attributed to it. Other people are the one's who decided to use the devices and gave the order to do so.

I'm sure Batman will feel responsible, but I don't think he is.

In terms of betraying trust, which is worse: devising a way to monitor your enemies (and friends) and devising ways to beat them in case they pose a threat? Or invading someone's mind and manipulating their memories? To me that choice is obvious.

[Mark Blicharz]

Batman may be overly paranoid, but I agree with Magnus, I don't think that's a bad thing (at least not for a comic book character!).

I don't think Batman is responsible for the OMAC deaths any more than I think the people who built the atomic bomb are responsible for deaths attributed to it. Other people are the one's who decided to use the devices and gave the order to do so.

I'm sure Batman will feel responsible, but I don't think he is.

In terms of betraying trust, which is worse: devising a way to monitor your enemies (and friends) and devising ways to beat them in case they pose a threat? Or invading someone's mind and manipulating their memories? To me that choice is obvious.

Both are wrong. When those plans can put their lives and families in danger, then devising ways to beat them is worse. Manipulating the memories was wrong, but it's not on the same level as monitoring innocent people. Especially when it's not the first time this has happened. Batman doesn't trust anyone but Superman and Alfred and in turn doesn't get trust in return. Someone give me any reason why the heroes should trust him.

[Gabriel Sosa]

Originally posted by Mark Blicharz:
Both are wrong. When those plans can put their lives and families in danger, then devising ways to beat them is worse.

First, the atomic bomb or any other gun, can be used to kill your friends, since all humans possess the same weaknesses. So in creating a weapon, no matter what good use you are trying to incorporate it for, you are in fact providing means to kill your friends and family.

The league has been mindcontrolled more times than I can remember. And when they have been mind controlled, they have put each other's families or themselves in danger. Actually in the last five years, I can count at least five times one or several members of the league being mind controlled, do I need to enumerate them? Or is it a fact that then there should be means to stop any of the league members from becoming evil and creating destruction on their wake. Well let's just take a look:
0. (Not counting it since it was more than five years ago) Hal Jordan becomes evil, and if I am not wrong he DID kill a lot of innocents once he went insane. So by creating those protocols certainly was Batman's intention to SAVE innocents who are defenseless against one hero gone berserk.
1. Superman almost killed Batman and Catwoman during Hush. Superman was about to crush Batman with a CAR. Yes, Supes was trying to fight back but he would have certainly killed Batman with that, unless Batman knew very well Superman's emotinal attachment towards Lois Lane, and have Catwoman do it. (No there is no need to counter Superman)
2. Superman almost killed Batman under Max's control. Yes, Superman would have killed him, because he thought he was fighting Darkseid at a point, hahahaha, imagine Superman hitting Batman with the might he would have used to stump on Darkseid. Mind barrier or not Superman would have definitely killed him unless WW would have intervened. And without the purple ray Bruce would have been out for a week.
Then Superman neutralized seven members of the league in seconds, and would have killed WW, make no mistake, he burnt part of her face and broke one of her arms (No there is no need to counter Superman, he would never ever hurt one of his friends).
3. Fernus mind controlled the league and had them try to kill one another, Faith almost killed Major Disaster. But wait the shocking part is that Fernus knows all about the league too, because he is a dark side of the martian manhunter concealed by its weakness towards fire.
4. Crucifer (was that story awful or what?) mind controlled Superman once again. Had him stab Wonder Woman, and capture Faith.
5. Despero (say no more).
6. Manchester Black in Justice League Elite had Superman killing thousands of londoners by psychically making him believe there was none else but him there, then Superman attacking him without holding back killing all the innocents around Black without Superman knowing it. Then Black letting him know. So Superman did kill a lot of people luckily Vera Black regained control of her body and had Eve put things back the way they were and the people were resurrected. And there is no denying this one because that story was written by Kelly, the same man who stated before in one of Mark's arguments that Superman would not kill a villain because of Lois Lane's death. So if we say Kelly does not know how to handle Superman, Rucka did not contradict him, so he wrote the story correctly, if on the other hand Kelly knows how to handle Superman, it is a fact that Superman endangers innocent lives every time he is mind controlled, in fact Diana's fall could have killed a lot of people in the highway being Superman partially responsible for allowing himself to be mind controlled yet again, since:
It might seem to me Superman is doing something extremely wrong here knowing how powerful he is, being mind controlled five times in five years real time (which is a lot more than comic time), hurting his friends, incapacitating them, in the verge of killing them, and then come up with the same excuse: "Sorry Bruce I was being mind controlled","Sorry Diana I was being mind controlled","Sorry Faith I was being mind controlled". But to still believe that there is no need for protocols to stop someone this powerful, what happens the day Diana is not there? Or the day a psychic immune superhero, like Red Tornado or Plastic man, is not around to stop the villain? The protocols are necessary.


Manipulating the memories was wrong, but it's not on the same level as monitoring innocent people. Especially when it's not the first time this has happened. Batman doesn't trust anyone but Superman and Alfred and in turn doesn't get trust in return.

What? No, no, no, no. According to Superman himself Bruce is not putting the lives of their heroes' loved ones in danger, it is themselves. If Superman uses that argument to tell the league that it was incorrect to erase from the villains their secret identities, it can be used here even with the more reason. Imagine the secret society of supervillains still knowing the identities of the league's loved ones, each and every one of them would be dead by now, unless each and every member of the league devoted their time to protect their loved ones instead of the world.
Hey, in fact according to that argument, Flash's is the one responsible for his wife losing two babies because of his identity being public, shame on you Flash, how dare you endanger your wife and kids because of being a hero.

Someone give me any reason why the heroes should trust him.

Hmmm let me think, New World Order, Batman saves them, because of his deep understanding of Martians, which he acquired thanks to studying J'onn and creating counter measures for him.
Terror Incognita, his headgear to avoid detection by martians allowed him to get near J'onn, deliver the atom and come up with a plan.
Obsidian Age, he saves the whole league by not throwing himself into the past without activating counter measures once again, hey we are going into the past, we could die there, wouldn't it be good to leave someone in charge just in case?
Or the time he stood by plastic man when Firestorm made fun of him, and praised his will.
Or the time he retrieved Lex Luthor's kryptonite ring while he was president.
Or the time when Wally gave up on being the Flash and Batman went there and spoke to him, and we won a hero back.
Trial by Fire, once again, without him they would not have been able to distract Fernus, since he was the one who went to collect Plastic Man. And in fact he did not reveal his plan to the others, (the league says typical), because Fernus could have read his mind.
Oh and let's not forget that time, when he refused that others knew his secret identity, otherwise they would have had a hell of a trouble stopping the white martians in that story when only one of them came to realize he was "Bruce Wayne".
Without mentioning going with Superman to collect his cousin from Apokolips, even though of all the people who were going he was the only one who could very well die during the rescue missions due to his lack of super powers and the nature of the planet.

So, yeah, I think there are no reasons why the other heroes should trust him. After all he never fought for them, or attempted to rescue them when they were captured by the enemies who were way more powerful than him, in fact villains who had power levels in pair with those of members of the league, and never taking public credit for it. No certainly Batman has not earned his place in the justice league.

Oh and I forgot to mention once more, if Diana would have had Bruce's protocols, there is one on how to defeat Maxwell Lord without killing him of that I am sure, I already gave my argument on this before. I approve of Diana's actions given the preciousness of time, and the pressure there, but do not forget Batman's protocols had a non-lethal way of dealing with that, after all Max was a member of the league, hence Batman had a protocol on him, and then certainly, since all the other protocols were neutralizing protocols for the most part, probably there was one there.

[Mark Blicharz]

First, the atomic bomb or any other gun, can be used to kill your friends, since all humans possess the same weaknesses. So in creating a weapon, no matter what good use you are trying to incorporate it for, you are in fact providing means to kill your friends and family.

The thing is, Batman didn't create it with knowledge of himself, he put every other hero at risk, while he and Alfred were fine.

The league has been mindcontrolled more times than I can remember. And when they have been mind controlled, they have put each other's families or themselves in danger. Actually in the last five years, I can count at least five times one or several members of the league being mind controlled, do I need to enumerate them? Or is it a fact that then there should be means to stop any of the league members from becoming evil and creating destruction on their wake. Well let's just take a look:

Let's.

0. (Not counting it since it was more than five years ago) Hal Jordan becomes evil, and if I am not wrong he DID kill a lot of innocents once he went insane. So by creating those protocols certainly was Batman's intention to SAVE innocents who are defenseless against one hero gone berserk.

Good intentions are the path to Hell. Hal did go nuts and did do these things and I've said he was wrong.

1. Superman almost killed Batman and Catwoman during Hush. Superman was about to crush Batman with a CAR. Yes, Supes was trying to fight back but he would have certainly killed Batman with that, unless Batman knew very well Superman's emotinal attachment towards Lois Lane, and have Catwoman do it. (No there is no need to counter Superman)
2. Superman almost killed Batman under Max's control. Yes, Superman would have killed him, because he thought he was fighting Darkseid at a point, hahahaha, imagine Superman hitting Batman with the might he would have used to stump on Darkseid. Mind barrier or not Superman would have definitely killed him unless WW would have intervened. And without the purple ray Bruce would have been out for a week.

Superman would never go to harm any friend of his. Plus, Superman told Batman to make plans for him to prevent him going rogue.

3. Fernus mind controlled the league and had them try to kill one another, Faith almost killed Major Disaster. But wait the shocking part is that Fernus knows all about the league too, because he is a dark side of the martian manhunter concealed by its weakness towards fire.

None of them could have been prepared for this one, not even the Martians knew of it due to the Guardians.

4. Crucifer (was that story awful or what?) mind controlled Superman once again. Had him stab Wonder Woman, and capture Faith.

Again, Superman would never harm a friend if he could control it. And yes, it was a bad story. Again, Batman was asked by Superman to come up with ways to defeat him.

5. Despero (say no more).

Last time it came down to the JLA and Despero against Superman and Zatanna. Superman kept them handled for Zatanna to stop Despero. Batman himself was taken over there.

6. Manchester Black in Justice League Elite had Superman killing thousands of londoners by psychically making him believe there was none else but him there, then Superman attacking him without holding back killing all the innocents around Black without Superman knowing it. Then Black letting him know. So Superman did kill a lot of people luckily Vera Black regained control of her body and had Eve put things back the way they were and the people were resurrected. And there is no denying this one because that story was written by Kelly, the same man who stated before in one of Mark's arguments that Superman would not kill a villain because of Lois Lane's death. So if we say Kelly does not know how to handle Superman, Rucka did not contradict him, so he wrote the story correctly, if on the other hand Kelly knows how to handle Superman, it is a fact that Superman endangers innocent lives every time he is mind controlled, in fact Diana's fall could have killed a lot of people in the highway being Superman partially responsible for allowing himself to be mind controlled yet again, since:
It might seem to me Superman is doing something extremely wrong here knowing how powerful he is, being mind controlled five times in five years real time (which is a lot more than comic time), hurting his friends, incapacitating them, in the verge of killing them, and then come up with the same excuse: "Sorry Bruce I was being mind controlled","Sorry Diana I was being mind controlled","Sorry Faith I was being mind controlled". But to still believe that there is no need for protocols to stop someone this powerful, what happens the day Diana is not there? Or the day a psychic immune superhero, like Red Tornado or Plastic man, is not around to stop the villain? The protocols are necessary.

Again, Batman was asked to make protocols for Superman. I'm aware of the writer(I'm sure you guessed that reading the Superman fan thread. :P), and I don't agree with Superman ever being shown killing. It's horrible and plain wrong. I don't think Superman would ever hit people, even villains as hard as he could. The few who he would, he knows could survive one punch.

What? No, no, no, no. According to Superman himself Bruce is not putting the lives of their heroes' loved ones in danger, it is themselves. If Superman uses that argument to tell the league that it was incorrect to erase from the villains their secret identities, it can be used here even with the more reason. Imagine the secret society of supervillains still knowing the identities of the league's loved ones, each and every one of them would be dead by now, unless each and every member of the league devoted their time to protect their loved ones instead of the world.

By spying on the heroes and getting their identities and full files, he was. Superman's not infallible and yes, the JLA were at fault for some of the things that happened, but that does not give Batman the right to put their real names somewhere insecure especially after his plans have been stolen before.

Hey, in fact according to that argument, Flash's is the one responsible for his wife losing two babies because of his identity being public, shame on you Flash, how dare you endanger your wife and kids because of being a hero.

Indirectly he is responsible.

Hmmm let me think, New World Order, Batman saves them, because of his deep understanding of Martians, which he acquired thanks to studying J'onn and creating counter measures for him.

Fire? Superman can create that with heat vision. What plans are needed there? Superman could have trashed the Hyperclan himself if he used his heat vision.

Terror Incognita, his headgear to avoid detection by martians allowed him to get near J'onn, deliver the atom and come up with a plan.

Funny how all the Superman mind control stories start in JLA but in his book it's vastly less. Martians are easy to beat, throw a burning twig at them and they can't do anything.

Obsidian Age, he saves the whole league by not throwing himself into the past without activating counter measures once again, hey we are going into the past, we could die there, wouldn't it be good to leave someone in charge just in case?

One that he actually did on his own.

Or the time he stood by plastic man when Firestorm made fun of him, and praised his will.

Praise does not inspire trust, it inspires respect and that's something every hero does for Batman.

Or the time he retrieved Lex Luthor's kryptonite ring while he was president.

I've already said Superman does trust Batman.

Or the time when Wally gave up on being the Flash and Batman went there and spoke to him, and we won a hero back.

Again, praising the Flash doesn't inspire trust. Batman does inspire respect.

Trial by Fire, once again, without him they would not have been able to distract Fernus, since he was the one who went to collect Plastic Man. And in fact he did not reveal his plan to the others, (the league says typical), because Fernus could have read his mind.

Fernus could have read it either way, the explanation doesn't make sense.

Oh and let's not forget that time, when he refused that others knew his secret identity, otherwise they would have had a hell of a trouble stopping the white martians in that story when only one of them came to realize he was "Bruce Wayne".

Fire=useless Martians.

Without mentioning going with Superman to collect his cousin from Apokolips, even though of all the people who were going he was the only one who could very well die during the rescue missions due to his lack of super powers and the nature of the planet.

Because out of all the heroes, Superman trusts Batman the most. I've said that before though.

So, yeah, I think there are no reasons why the other heroes should trust him. After all he never fought for them, or attempted to rescue them when they were captured by the enemies who were way more powerful than him, in fact villains who had power levels in pair with those of members of the league, and never taking public credit for it. No certainly Batman has not earned his place in the justice league.

Never once did I say he didn't earn his spot. He did. What I said was all the things he did to garner trust was negated by spying on them behind their backs even though the majority of the league had nothing to do with the mind wipes and would have been outraged by them. Batman had a right to be paranoid, but not to the point where innocent lives were put in jeopardy.

Oh and I forgot to mention once more, if Diana would have had Bruce's protocols, there is one on how to defeat Maxwell Lord without killing him of that I am sure, I already gave my argument on this before. I approve of Diana's actions given the preciousness of time, and the pressure there, but do not forget Batman's protocols had a non-lethal way of dealing with that, after all Max was a member of the league, hence Batman had a protocol on him, and then certainly, since all the other protocols were neutralizing protocols for the most part, probably there was one there.

I'm not sure there was. Max wasn't considered a threat before. Max had never begun to do anything like this before. Defeating Max was easy, just had to KO him, the problem was defeating Superman before, which is why she got the kryptonite.

[Gabriel Sosa]

Originally posted by Mark Blicharz:
The thing is, Batman didn't create it with knowledge of himself, he put every other hero at risk, while he and Alfred were fine.


What is the purpose of putting himself in the protocols?, fear Batman he has gone crazy, Superman hits him with two punches, he is done for, Flash outruns him, he is done for, Wonder Woman KO after some sparring, Green Lantern puts him in prison construct, Ollie hits him with an arrow on the distance, Martian Manhunter uses heat vision, controls him telepathically, or holds him with his body, Plastic Man same, you just said it yourself when referring to Max, oh and Max does have more metahuman ability than Batman.

What is even better now that you mention it, Batman is the only superhero, I know of in the JLA role call, who has no family to turn to, except a butler, and a doctor who does not approve of his actions, way to go Bats and whose sidekicks have in fact been killed in action. Being all of them human, the neutralization story is not that difficult, yet again, Nightwing, Robin, are in the protocols, since Max does not know them personally, there is no way for brother Eye to know who they are unless Batman himself put them there. So he did not leave anyone out. Besides Batman was in the protocols, Beetle went through his files, and if we argue that the files Beetle found are not the original protocols, then maybe the original protocols were not as detailed either then.

Originally posted by Mark Blicharz:
None of them could have been prepared for this one, not even the Martians knew of it due to the Guardians.

But Batman had a file saying that because of what happened during the obsidian age, Plastic Man would be immune to telepathic control. Without that knowledge (something Batman did on his own), no distracting Fernus. And I was pointing that one as an example of the league being mind controled, not of a preparation plan.

Originally posted by Mark Blicharz:
Again, Superman would never harm a friend if he could control it


But he has been controled many times over, so yes, the excuse is wearing out.

Originally posted by Mark Blicharz:
Last time it came down to the JLA and Despero against Superman and Zatanna. Superman kept them handled for Zatanna to stop Despero. Batman himself was taken over there.


Exactly, once again I was just pointing out how deadly the league is while they are being mind controlled, and counting how many times it had happened, there is a need for those protocols. I am not going against Superman here, I am showing that those protocols are in fact more than necessary. Sad to see that Superman is the one who has been mind controlled the most, but I don't write the stories. One thing is true the damage in lives Superman, or Wonder Woman, or Flash, or Green Lantern, or Martian Manhunter, turned evil could be in the thousands.
Protocols to save the world in case the league goes bad are necessary, Batman has all the right to have those protocols after what happened to Hal Jordan, after Superman asking him to create protocols for himself (why not the others? when some of them are almost in the same power level as Superman), and after seeing the league being mind controlled over and over again. Even Batman in Tower of Babel tells Superman when he started creating the protocols was because of a past fight when the world could have been annihilated by an evil force possessing the league.

Originally posted by Mark Blicharz:
I don't agree with Superman ever being shown killing. It's horrible and plain wrong. I don't think Superman would ever hit people, even villains as hard as he could.


He did not hit those people in Justice League Elite, he killed them by using his heat vision and going super fast towards Black, while he casted the illusion so Superman would not see them. It was not conscious, but his powers are a danger if hijacked. Or him being under an illusion, he would not hit people as hard as he could, but if he thinks doomsday is coming towards him, make no doubt he would hit him with a lot of strength, since as the result wonder woman made a crater, imagine him now hitting a normal person believing that person was doomsday. Person killed, physics fact.

Originally posted by Mark Blicharz:
By spying on the heroes and getting their identities and full files, he was. Superman's not infallible and yes, the JLA were at fault for some of the things that happened
but that does not give Batman the right to put their real names somewhere insecure especially after his plans have been stolen before.


The funny thing here is that his plans were stolen this time by another of the Justice League members. Maxwell Lord was a member of the Justice League there is no going around that one. To me it seems the League have been having bigger problems for a long time than Batman's paranoia.
Besides Batman's identity was a secret, he was forced to reveal for the good of the league, I don't think that is fair either, what if a telepathic villain gets his identity from the mind of one of his colleagues? Is the colleague responsible for demanding to know his identity, if it is later used by a villain?
Well according to what you say, the league is indirectly responsible too for being heroes, and allowing others to discover their secret identities. So Batman is as indirectly responsible as they are.

Originally posted by Mark Blicharz:
Fire? Superman can create that with heat vision. What plans are needed there? Superman could have trashed the Hyperclan himself if he used his heat vision.


But he could not because he was being mind controlled :P.
So no denying that Batman did save them there, big time. Besides, Superman did not know they were martians, so he would not have used his heat vision right away. Batman did because of the powers they had deployed they all met martians, besides Batman acted deceivingly allowing him to confirm his own theories, superman had none, he was take down. Batman saved them. He did it on his own. Handled almost all of the martians by himself. J'onn was the other one who helped save the league there. But if it had not been for Batman...

Originally posted by Mark Blicharz:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabriel Sosa
Terror Incognita, his headgear to avoid detection by martians allowed him to get near J'onn, deliver the atom and come up with a plan.

Funny how all the Superman mind control stories start in JLA but in his book it's vastly less. Martians are easy to beat, throw a burning twig at them and they can't do anything.



I am aware Superman is not mind control in his own stories either, but none of the other heroes are that mind controlled in their respective comics either.
Now if you read Terror Incognita, you must remember that the league could not use fire as a weapon because there was no oxygen on the world anymore, and they did not know they were going against martians till the last minute, when there was no oxygen anymore, only Batman knew there was something wrong, he created the headgear using his protocols to nullify detection by J'onn. So it was not that easy to defeat them this time.
This save was Batman's too. No going around it. Had he not gone right away to save J'onn with the Atom, all of the heroes would have been defeated, since there was no way to defeat the martians, no oxygen left, not even firestorm could transmute the substance back to oxygen. Batman did it on his own.
Besides fire does not kill the martians, it holds them at bay, they could retire and regroup to attack later.

Originally posted by Mark Blicharz:
I'm not sure there was. Max wasn't considered a threat before. Max had never begun to do anything like this before. Defeating Max was easy, just had to KO him, the problem was defeating Superman before, which is why she got the kryptonite.


Well if Blue Beetle, Booster and Batman himself were in the protocols, Max had to be there too. That is for sure.

Originally posted by Gabriel Sosa:
So, yeah, I think there are no reasons why the other heroes should trust him. After all he never fought for them, or attempted to rescue them when they were captured by the enemies who were way more powerful than him, in fact villains who had power levels in pair with those of members of the league, and never taking public credit for it.


Are you telling me these people are not going to trust a guy who has gone in their rescue in spite of his limitations? After all the times he fought alongside them? Yes, you are right he might not have their trust anymore. But at this moment, I would say you can not trust anyone in the JLA except for Superman, and that is because of his boy scoutness.
Most of the members mindwiped Batman. Another one killed a lot of people before. Another one stole plans from Batman to put them into effect and kill them. Another one killed a person while being a person while being a member against the charter of the group. Hmmm, I don't think trust is an issue to be discussed here.
They will have to look away from there and weight all this time this only human member has been there for them when they needed him.

[Eric Barrett]

I think the difference here is actually one that Thomas Jefferson and Alexander Hamilton fought about at the inception of the US. They argued over the role of "responsibility vs. vigilance". This is the same thing we are arguing about.

Batman clearly favors "responsibility" in the sense he believes that bad people will do bad things, and that the use of force is sometimes necessary to stop them. And the best way to use force is to be prepared. Hence, he created OMAC.

You seem to be arguing Mark, that it's more important to be "vigilant" against any acts that may "spy" on people or bring them harm. And if superheroes aren’t vigilant enough, untrustworthy people like Batman will run amuck.

I obviously fall into Batman’s camp, and think that at times the best thing to do is to be paranoid – and that paranoia will prevent bad things from happening (although obviously not all the time).

(This is why I love comic books, you get to argue great philosophical issues AND read about robots!)

[Gabriel Sosa]

Eric that was a deep addition to this debate :)

[Chapel]

Batman has no superpowers. None, zip, nadda......nadda3. The one thing that puts Batman ahead of other street levers is that he is ALWAYS prepared. I am so so sorry Batman isn't Midknighter with a handy dandy computer in his head that can instantly pull up how to beat anybody on the fly. Batman has to...he must create his plan ahead of time.

1) The JLA has gone evil like 50 times. Superman has almost killed Batman like 4 times in the last year alone.

How could Batman not have a plan to defeat that? Why would he not prepare to defend himself

2) Batman does have plan against himself and his children and Alfred....and they all have plans for him as well(At lest Tim Drake and Alfred do)

Batman's superpower if you will is he has prep-time against any possible situation because he has already run and fought the battle in his head. You don't blame Superman when he losses his control of his powers....if someone hacked into Midknighter's computer you wouldn't blame him......why on Chuthulu's forsaken wart are you blaming Batman?

[Eric Barrett]

Thanks. Now we'll see who I scared away. :LOL:

[Chapel]

I think the difference here is actually one that Thomas Jefferson and Alexander Hamilton fought about at the inception of the US. They argued over the role of "responsibility vs. vigilance". This is the same thing we are arguing about.

Batman clearly favors "responsibility" in the sense he believes that bad people will do bad things, and that the use of force is sometimes necessary to stop them. And the best way to use force is to be prepared. Hence, he created OMAC.

You seem to be arguing Mark, that it's more important to be "vigilant" against any acts that may "spy" on people or bring them harm. And if superheroes aren’t vigilant enough, untrustworthy people like Batman will run amuck.

I obviously fall into Batman’s camp, and think that at times the best thing to do is to be paranoid – and that paranoia will prevent bad things from happening (although obviously not all the time).

(This is why I love comic books, you get to argue great philosophical issues AND read about robots!)

The problem with "vigiliance" is that a lot of times once the bad things happen its waaaaaaay to late to try and stop it. Preparation wins battles and wars....especially when you are not bullet proof.

[Gabriel Sosa]

Originally posted by Chapel:
2) Batman does have plan against himself and his children and Alfred....and they all have plans for him as well(At lest Tim Drake and Alfred do)


I had forgotten about the Tim Drake plans, Bruce and Tim had discussed them before. You are right, thank you for reminding us and bringing it up.

[Mark Blicharz]

What is the purpose of putting himself in the protocols?, fear Batman he has gone crazy, Superman hits him with two punches, he is done for, Flash outruns him, he is done for, Wonder Woman KO after some sparring, Green Lantern puts him in prison construct, Ollie hits him with an arrow on the distance, Martian Manhunter uses heat vision, controls him telepathically, or holds him with his body, Plastic Man same, you just said it yourself when referring to Max, oh and Max does have more metahuman ability than Batman.

And consider the tech Batman's made, no it's not foolproof to do. If Batman went rogue, all his protocols could have went into affect and the heroes could wind up killing themselves getting to him.

What is even better now that you mention it, Batman is the only superhero, I know of in the JLA role call, who has no family to turn to, except a butler, and a doctor who does not approve of his actions, way to go Bats and whose sidekicks have in fact been killed in action. Being all of them human, the neutralization story is not that difficult, yet again, Nightwing, Robin, are in the protocols, since Max does not know them personally, there is no way for brother Eye to know who they are unless Batman himself put them there. So he did not leave anyone out. Besides Batman was in the protocols, Beetle went through his files, and if we argue that the files Beetle found are not the original protocols, then maybe the original protocols were not as detailed either then.

Family isn't just decided by birth. Bruce loves Dick like a son, even though he's not. Alfred is his father. Superman is his brother. Diana has no one to turn to now either, but it won't drive her paranoid and going out to make plans to take her friends down. Kyle Rayner has no family either, they were killed. The fact is this, when Batman needs help he won't ask for it. He has never asked for aid even though he knows he could trust Clark to help him throughout everything. He knows no matter how bad Bruce screws up, Clark would be there for him.

But Batman had a file saying that because of what happened during the obsidian age, Plastic Man would be immune to telepathic control. Without that knowledge (something Batman did on his own), no distracting Fernus. And I was pointing that one as an example of the league being mind controled, not of a preparation plan.

I didn't say some of the plans didn't help, but that's more of a mental note then anything.

But he has been controled many times over, so yes, the excuse is wearing out.

Batman's excuse for losing tech to enemies wore out the first time he nearly got all of his friends killed.

Exactly, once again I was just pointing out how deadly the league is while they are being mind controlled, and counting how many times it had happened, there is a need for those protocols. I am not going against Superman here, I am showing that those protocols are in fact more than necessary. Sad to see that Superman is the one who has been mind controlled the most, but I don't write the stories. One thing is true the damage in lives Superman, or Wonder Woman, or Flash, or Green Lantern, or Martian Manhunter, turned evil could be in the thousands.

That's true, but the count could be the same as Batman. Batman's plans could cost the lives of every hero, leaving him to rip apart normal humans at will as well.

Protocols to save the world in case the league goes bad are necessary, Batman has all the right to have those protocols after what happened to Hal Jordan, after Superman asking him to create protocols for himself (why not the others? when some of them are almost in the same power level as Superman), and after seeing the league being mind controlled over and over again. Even Batman in Tower of Babel tells Superman when he started creating the protocols was because of a past fight when the world could have been annihilated by an evil force possessing the league.

Superman doesn't have the right to ask for protocols for the other heroes. That's not Superman. That's why every hero trusts him. They know no matter, Superman will try to help them, not put them down. Batman does it to insure the safety of innocents true, but these protocols have gotten out twice now. When is it going to be enough? When heroes die because of them?

He did not hit those people in Justice League Elite, he killed them by using his heat vision and going super fast towards Black, while he casted the illusion so Superman would not see them. It was not conscious, but his powers are a danger if hijacked. Or him being under an illusion, he would not hit people as hard as he could, but if he thinks doomsday is coming towards him, make no doubt he would hit him with a lot of strength, since as the result wonder woman made a crater, imagine him now hitting a normal person believing that person was doomsday. Person killed, physics fact.

Will never hear me say that Superman isn't dangerous if he goes rogue. The thing is, it's still just one man. You still have teams of heroes that can help to stop the JLA or Superman. Protocols aren't needed.

The funny thing here is that his plans were stolen this time by another of the Justice League members. Maxwell Lord was a member of the Justice League there is no going around that one. To me it seems the League have been having bigger problems for a long time than Batman's paranoia.

They have had problems. Heroes are supposed to be able to trust each other, but Batman trusts so very few it's understandable why he catches heat for what he does. The very nature of him currently is that he's paranoid about everything. He asks for no help ever, that's where his problem is.

Besides Batman's identity was a secret, he was forced to reveal for the good of the league, I don't think that is fair either, what if a telepathic villain gets his identity from the mind of one of his colleagues? Is the colleague responsible for demanding to know his identity, if it is later used by a villain?

What would stop a telepath from reading it directly from Batman's mind?

Well according to what you say, the league is indirectly responsible too for being heroes, and allowing others to discover their secret identities. So Batman is as indirectly responsible as they are.

I've stated the JLA are at fault also.

But he could not because he was being mind controlled :P.
So no denying that Batman did save them there, big time. Besides, Superman did not know they were martians, so he would not have used his heat vision right away. Batman did because of the powers they had deployed they all met martians, besides Batman acted deceivingly allowing him to confirm his own theories, superman had none, he was take down. Batman saved them. He did it on his own. Handled almost all of the martians by himself. J'onn was the other one who helped save the league there. But if it had not been for Batman...

Only because Superman wasn't smart enough to scan them with his X-ray vision or infrared vision to see if they were human. Or listen to their heartbeats and hear something different then normal humans.

I am aware Superman is not mind control in his own stories either, but none of the other heroes are that mind controlled in their respective comics either.

Superman gets the short end of the stick on this one, very rarely is anyone else taken over mentally in JLA.

Now if you read Terror Incognita, you must remember that the league could not use fire as a weapon because there was no oxygen on the world anymore, and they did not know they were going against martians till the last minute, when there was no oxygen anymore, only Batman knew there was something wrong, he created the headgear using his protocols to nullify detection by J'onn. So it was not that easy to defeat them this time.

Even if it was minute portions of oxygen, it still existed. Any form of water would have had oxygen in it.

Besides fire does not kill the martians, it holds them at bay, they could retire and regroup to attack later.

No it doesn't kill em, but they aren't able to use their powers in it's presence.

Well if Blue Beetle, Booster and Batman himself were in the protocols, Max had to be there too. That is for sure.

Batman was in the protocols due to Max having his own files, Batman wouldn't have put himself in the protocols. Booster and Beetle had powers of their own.

Are you telling me these people are not going to trust a guy who has gone in their rescue in spite of his limitations? After all the times he fought alongside them? Yes, you are right he might not have their trust anymore. But at this moment, I would say you can not trust anyone in the JLA except for Superman, and that is because of his boy scoutness.

No, I wouldn't trust him either if he went behind my back twice. I wouldn't trust anyone who did.

Most of the members mindwiped Batman. Another one killed a lot of people before. Another one stole plans from Batman to put them into effect and kill them. Another one killed a person while being a person while being a member against the charter of the group. Hmmm, I don't think trust is an issue to be discussed here.

No, most didn't mind wipe Batman. A small group did. The League is much bigger then the big seven. Diana did what she had to to free Superman and insure the lives of the heroes.

They will have to look away from there and weight all this time this only human member has been there for them when they needed him.

Ollie is human, yet he hasn't gone and made protocols to defeat the other heroes. Trust is an issue with Batman, it will be as long as he presents himself as such. He refused to call Superman for help. Batman puts the weight of the world on his shoulders and it's too much for him. Batman views himself as wrong for what he did.

[Chapel]

Ollie is human, yet he hasn't gone and made protocols to defeat the other heroes. Trust is an issue with Batman, it will be as long as he presents himself as such. He refused to call Superman for help. Batman puts the weight of the world on his shoulders and it's too much for him. Batman views himself as wrong for what he did.

That is way Ollie will never be top tier and why Batman has saved the worlds more times than Ollie has beard hair.


Batman does not refuse to call Superman for help....he simply refuses to allow himself to become overly reliant on Superman.

[Gabriel Sosa]

Originally posted by Mark Blicharz:
Family isn't just decided by birth. Bruce loves Dick like a son, even though he's not. Alfred is his father. Superman is his brother. Diana has no one to turn to now either, but it won't drive her paranoid and going out to make plans to take her friends down. Kyle Rayner has no family either, they were killed. The fact is this, when Batman needs help he won't ask for it. He has never asked for aid even though he knows he could trust Clark to help him throughout everything. He knows no matter how bad Bruce screws up, Clark would be there for him.

I was not only talking about family in that sense, that is why I included his sidekicks, Batman is the hero who has lost most loved ones, who were really close to him, over the years, and that can be easily be proved, he is the one who has gotten most friends to turn against him. Superman has lost 0, none, nada, his kryptonian family does not count, he was not close to them. Kyle is a close second after Batman, that is why I am such a Kyle fan. But even he said in the Tower of Bable he could not judge Batman over what he had done, since he understood and saw a point to Batman's point, he even brought back the Hal Jordan screw up when Wally went all out on him.
Funny how they have been way more forgiving of Hal than of Bruce, seeing how what Hal did just proves Bruce point.

Originally posted by Mark Blicharz:
And consider the tech Batman's made, no it's not foolproof to do. If Batman went rogue, all his protocols could have went into affect and the heroes could wind up killing themselves getting to him
He has Tim stop him, Chapel, just reminded us of that. He does have plans to stop him, I even think Dick has a copy.

Originally posted by Mark Blicharz:
Batman's excuse for losing tech to enemies wore out the first time he nearly got all of his friends killed.
It did not that is why three out of six of the big seven vote in favor of him staying during Tower of Babel.
Batman losing tech to enemies is the same as Superman being mind controlled by enemies. Tech and plans are Batman's powers, I agree 100% with Chapel on that, that is Batman's appeal.

Originally posted by Mark Blicharz:
That's true, but the count could be the same as Batman. Batman's plans could cost the lives of every hero, leaving him to rip apart normal humans at will as well.

???? when in the arena battles you have Batman against Superman, Superman winning every time. Batman against the whole JLA, Batman loses for certain, Superman against the whole JLA, there is a possibility of Superman winning, a very strong possibility.
It would be impossible for Batman to put all of his plans into motion at once.

Originally posted by Mark Blicharz:
What would stop a telepath from reading it directly from Batman's mind?
Batman's headgears. If it is a fight he is going to take part in against a knowingly adversary, he has lots of headgears to nullify telepathic attacks. Depending on who is coming. You get to see the times Batman has been attacked by telepaths all of a sudden was when he is hanging out at the watchtower, the key, Fernus, (so I fully understand why he says that he does not like to go into monitor duty :D, or that he rather go to the league's side if he considers it necessary), Despero would never have gotten to the Batcave had he not known that from Arthur and J'onn.

Originally posted by Mark Blicharz:
Only because Superman wasn't smart enough to scan them with his X-ray vision or infrared vision to see if they were human. Or listen to their heartbeats and hear something different then normal humans.

The Hyperclan were not humans it was stated they were aliens, so their heartbeats being different from humans would not have been all that odd. Superman was not bright enough? He was being mind controlled, anyway Batman did save them that time, and I was just defending that point, you seemed to want to undermine that achievement, by saying battling white martians when they were undetected was an easy thing, when it clearly was not. They took out the whole league. Batman and J'onn saved them.

Originally posted by Mark Blicharz:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabriel Sosa
Now if you read Terror Incognita, you must remember that the league could not use fire as a weapon because there was no oxygen on the world anymore, and they did not know they were going against martians till the last minute, when there was no oxygen anymore, only Batman knew there was something wrong, he created the headgear using his protocols to nullify detection by J'onn. So it was not that easy to defeat them this time.

Even if it was minute portions of oxygen, it still existed. Any form of water would have had oxygen in it.


Nobody figured that out in that storyline and I am pretty sure the oxygen in the water was transmuted to, and even then Firestorm was not able to transmute the substance, he was one of the first people the martians took out, now. Batman saved them in that story, I am not changing the story or giving what if arguments in my discussion of Batman's involvement and saving of the league, which shows how much they mean to him too.
He considers them family, but he can't help having those protocols in light of many circumstances that have been exposed before. My whole point is the league trusts Batman's intentions. Blaming him for allowing his protocols and satellite stolen, is like blaming superman for being mind controlled for the twentieth time. Besides the second time they were stolen, they were stolen by one of the heroes themselves, one of the members he is supposed not to not trust, so, it was the heroes knowledge of Batman's protocols what proved the protocols misuse. Batman's had his protocols stolen but villains once only, and when that happened the League said to Batman, they did not mind the protocols, what they minded was the fact he kept their existence hidden from the league, which in fact proved to be the right thing once again for Batman, the moment they become general knowledge of the league, they were stolen with stealth this time by a former member.


Originally posted by Mark Blicharz:
Superman doesn't have the right to ask for protocols for the other heroes. That's not Superman. That's why every hero trusts him. They know no matter, Superman will try to help them, not put them down. Batman does it to insure the safety of innocents true, but these protocols have gotten out twice now. When is it going to be enough? When heroes die because of them?
I never said Superman asked for that. When is it going to be enough about superman being mind controlled? When he actually kills someone, he was pretty close this time, in fact he almost killed his best two friends.
The necessity for protocols has been proved over and over. Remember Hal Jordan?
Batman helps them no matter what, even more, without any powers of his own, Batman has never left a single hero behind, and has never even for a second hesitated in going to the rescue of a colleague in need even if he was outnumbered or outpowered.

Originally posted by Mark Blicharz:
Booster and Beetle had powers of their own.

Beetle has no powers, he has a heart condition :D, ok, joke aside, I do not remember Ted Kord having super powers, he is a Batman like character he only has his tech, if his tech was stolen and misused will he be to blame?

Originally posted by Mark Blicharz:
No, most didn't mind wipe Batman. A small group did. The League is much bigger then the big seven. Diana did what she had to to free Superman and insure the lives of the heroes.

According to the time line, it was at least half the league from that time, which was the second incarnation of the league, so in that time half the members were not to trust. Remember Ollie did not oppose to mindwipe Batman, that time the decision was unanimous.

Originally posted by Mark Blicharz:
Ollie is human, yet he hasn't gone and made protocols to defeat the other heroes. Trust is an issue with Batman, it will be as long as he presents himself as such. He refused to call Superman for help. Batman puts the weight of the world on his shoulders and it's too much for him. Batman views himself as wrong for what he did.

Ollie is not one of the big seven, Batman is. Besides Ollie has several times said he does not entirely approve of the league too, he has his own life, and he does not believe that fighting superhumans or aliens is more important than saving the people in his own city. A little bit more selfish that Bruce maybe who is all obssessed with Gotham, but still finds more time for the league than Ollie himself.

Originally posted by Mark Blicharz:
Superman gets the short end of the stick on this one, very rarely is anyone else taken over mentally in JLA.

Something that makes sense too, if you are going to mind control somebody in the league go for the most powerful, or otherwise, when the league is fighting you, probably the member you are mind controlling will be overpowered by the most powerful member you did not think of mind controlling.


Once again, Mark, I am glad with this discussion because you know your comics :P

[Magnus2k]

The difference is, the inventors of the gun and car most likely didn't have the plans to defeat his friends. They never had them stolen before. Batman did. Batman has been paranoid for years. He's directly put the lives of his friends in jeopardy by building that satellite and recording their lives and their weaknesses and powers. He also put their families in danger by doing so. How is it so few see how utterly wrong that is?

I never said it was right. I just say it wasnt totally unwarranted. The man had every reason to act the way he did. I agree it failed, and caused some drama, and he does need to be held somewhat responsible. But fully? No, I'll never be convinced otherwise. Max Lord has a part to play. Luthor has a part to play. The JLA has a part to play. Fault can be directed in many different directions.

[Chapel]

The difference is, the inventors of the gun and car most likely didn't have the plans to defeat his friends. They never had them stolen before. Batman did. Batman has been paranoid for years. He's directly put the lives of his friends in jeopardy by building that satellite and recording their lives and their weaknesses and powers. He also put their families in danger by doing so. How is it so few see how utterly wrong that is?

The US governement has plans to destory Great Britton already drawn up. GB has the same thing for the US. Its called being prepared. What is Batman suppose to do just sit there and close his eyes to the danger Superman represents? SUPERMAN HAS ALMOST KILLED HIM TWICE. What should Batman's response be? Stick his head in the sand and try to forget that Superman is one neuron change away from killing Bats and his whole family?

Batman makes planes to account for every situation that could possibly happen and several that can't. Its those plans that have kept him his family and his teammates alive over the years.

I just don't get this. It has been shown and proven that there was no way for Batman to have prevented the Omac situation. Not a single precaution Batman could have taken would have helped. Why is he still being held responsible for something he could not have prevented?

[CPT Space Bomb]

I love Batman, for much the same reasons that I love Doom. Rich, Ingenious, and arrogant. Course, the Bat is more of a ladies man that Vic, but that's besides the point. Batman shouldn't be held responsible for that, just like he shouldn't be held responsible for NOT killing crooks.