Does "Byrne Superman" Exist Anymore?

[Nikkolas]

So, in current continuity Superman was Superboy and was with the LOSH in the futr.e We also know some PC JLA comics have been referenced.

So, does all this render the early post-COIE comics non-canon?

[Adam Chapman]

I am tempted to say yes. Post-IC, we don't know the full extent of the changes to the origin, but Birthright was on its way to becoming the more accepted modern origin.

Post-IC its hard to tell, but his experiences with the Legion, etc, certainly support the theory that New Earth doesn't have origin similarities with Byrne's reinvention and retooling of Superman.

[WhereIsTony]

DC continuity is such a mess right now. There is no way to tell what still happened from before IC. With luck FC will fix it.

[JX141]

DC continuity is such a mess right now. There is no way to tell what still happened from before IC. With luck FC will fix it.

I am not holding my breath.

That said I am wondering which Legion is the actual legion in the future of the earth we most often read about in current DCU. You know where Action comics, Detective, JLA, JSA etc take place.

I would have said the most recent launch of LoSH was the this earth's future legion and that the one seen in JSA/JLA Lightning saga came crossed over to a different earth when they came back. However it seems the case that when Kara joined that Legion in their book she must have crossed over to a different earth and then crossed back when she came back.

After the recent Action comics arc it seems pretty much solid that Clark interacted with the Lightning Saga legion (btw they pretty much = the PC legion) as a teen and they are this future's legion as their time machines and the ring they recently gave him can bring him there. Further evidence looking back at lightning saga would be that they came to return this earth's Wally.

It would then make sense that the "reboot" legion circa 95, is tied to Byrne Superman and that continuity. Well technically not Supes himself but with Valor/M'onel/whatever as the inspiration

Not sure where the legion from the current book is tied.

I could be totally wrong though. Anyone follow or have other thoughts?

[Thor-El]

DC continuity is such a mess right now. There is no way to tell what still happened from before IC. With luck FC will fix it.

I believe it's been stated that Final Crisis has nothing to do with setting continuity straight ala IC or COIE!

[WhereIsTony]

you know since every attempt to fix it has made it worse, it may be for the best for DC just to move on

[Thor-El]

you know since every attempt to fix it has made it worse, it may be for the best for DC just to move on

couldn't agree more ;)

[Ben Lehnsherr]

DC continuity is such a mess right now. There is no way to tell what still happened from before IC. With luck FC will fix it.

Luck being the key word. :LOL: But yeah, its been said this Crisis isn't a continuity fix at all.

[Magnus2k]

Silly kids. It wont be fixed in FC, it happens in the next crisis!

"NEW CRISIS! THE CRISIS TO END ALL CRISISES!"

[Adam Chapman]

Silly kids. It wont be fixed in FC, it happens in the next crisis!

"NEW CRISIS! THE CRISIS TO END ALL CRISISES!"

No no, it'll be "NEW CRISIS: THE CRISIS TO BEGIN ALL CRISISES!"

Thought provoking, and will see the birth of the multiverse that existed prior to 1986, as well as the birth of the Anti-Monitor, setting the stage for all the comics that were ever published, establishing a circular timeline.

[Nikkolas]

Now speaking just powerwise, Byrne Superman usually refers (in my experience) to late 80s/early 90s Superman because he was weaker. So when did he get stronger and cease to be Byrneman?

I always figured Death of Superman was the end and his subsequent resurrection marked his growth in power.

Thoughts?

[Adam Chapman]

That's one interpretation, not that I necessarily disagree with you.

But Byrne Superman to me also means the incarnation of Clark/Superman whereby Clark was a dominant personality, and the one that Lois fell in love with without knowing he was Superman.

So there's the power-wise level, where you're kind of right, but it Byrne-ian Superman also refers to his origin, and the interpretation of Clark/Superman.

[WorldIsMine]

I'd like to see a Superman pastiche who dresses up in as a normal person sheerly to conceal his identity, and doesn't develop any bizarre psychological issues because of it. I mean, there's no overt reason to conceal your personality as long as you don't make the weird decision to live and work in the same place. So you could very well be "Superman in a t-shirt".

[cpahl2000]

Not anymore which is bad because I think man of Steel concepts could be used in today´s Superman. During the years, Superman´s origin changed so much that it´s impossible to say which is used these days.Johns and Robinson will do another version, I hope it´s the last( For a while).

[Justin Byrd]

I'd like to see a Superman pastiche who dresses up in as a normal person sheerly to conceal his identity, and doesn't develop any bizarre psychological issues because of it. I mean, there's no overt reason to conceal your personality as long as you don't make the weird decision to live and work in the same place. So you could very well be "Superman in a t-shirt".

Clark doesn't conceal his personality. Clark IS the personality. He just changes his appearance and alters his voice.

Superman is the "mask", if you will...Clark is the real guy.

[Solomon_Grundy]

No no, it'll be "NEW CRISIS: THE CRISIS TO BEGIN ALL CRISISES!"

Thought provoking, and will see the birth of the multiverse that existed prior to 1986, as well as the birth of the Anti-Monitor, setting the stage for all the comics that were ever published, establishing a circular timeline.

They already did that. That was called "Zero Hour".

How quickly you forget, Adam.

[WhereIsTony]

I'd like to see a Superman pastiche who dresses up in as a normal person sheerly to conceal his identity, and doesn't develop any bizarre psychological issues because of it. I mean, there's no overt reason to conceal your personality as long as you don't make the weird decision to live and work in the same place. So you could very well be "Superman in a t-shirt".

I am sure he would be recognized (not that his costume is any good for concealment)

[Adam Chapman]

They already did that. That was called "Zero Hour".

How quickly you forget, Adam.

Fair enough. :p:superhero:

[Captain Marvel]

IMHO, what DC needs to do is a page-one reboot of their entire universe. I mean completely start from scratch. You could still have the old history, such as the JSA operating during WWII and all that, but bring the current stars, such as Superman, Batman, Wonderwoman, Captain Marvel and all of them out with a new beginning and go from there.
I mean, really, it's getting so convoluted that it is difficult for anyone to keep up with continuity anymore.

[thtadthtshldntb]

Multiple DC writers and editors are on record as stating the New Earth is basically its own continuity, even mentioning some of the changes.

The gist of it, is that current NE Superman is something like a loose combination of the post CoIE Superman, with some of the Silver Age aspects returned (such as the real Supergirl and the real Zod, Superboy and his involvement with the LoSH). The current origin of Superman is something that is probably scheduled for the anniversary, although to be honest Grant Morrison wrote the best ever modern origin of Superman in All Star Superman.

[Whirlysplat]

Clark doesn't conceal his personality. Clark IS the personality. He just changes his appearance and alters his voice.

Superman is the "mask", if you will...Clark is the real guy.


I disagree with that Justin. Clark is as much a mask as Superman. Clark pretends to be a klutz. He also pretends to stoop and be mild mannered. The truth is both Superman and Clark are hiding Kal El.

[Justin Byrd]

I disagree with that Justin. Clark is as much a mask as Superman. Clark pretends to be a klutz. He also pretends to stoop and be mild mannered. The truth is both Superman and Clark are hiding Kal El.

Byrne's retcon established that is not true. He doesn't act klutzy or mild-mannered in any of his post-CoIE stories (though some were a bit like that now...I hope they don't go back to the Silver Age Kent).

Regardless, he self-identifies as Clark AND Kal. Kal is what he goes by with other Kryptonians and aliens, Clark is how he refers to himself with his real friends and family.

[Curt Kobain]

Let's just call the Byre re-tool of Superman for what it's become: an irrelevant failure.

[Justin Byrd]

Let's just call the Byre re-tool of Superman for what it's become: an irrelevant failure.

It's hardly irrelevant, and I liked a lot of what came out of it.

[thtadthtshldntb]

John Byrne did what DC editorial at the time wanted him to do, reduce the Superman concept to some core elements and eliminate much of the Silver Age aspects to the character.

It was only years later when the younger writers are the time, Alan Moore and Neil Gaiman for example, realized that the problem with Silver Age Superman, was not Superman, but the retarded editorial processes controlling DC comics, that the respect for the character, and the subsequent restoration of certain Silver Age elements, such as the real Supergirl, the LoSH and a couple of other things, made possible what is going on now.

[Curt Kobain]

IMHO, what DC needs to do is a page-one reboot of their entire universe. I mean completely start from scratch. You could still have the old history, such as the JSA operating during WWII and all that, but bring the current stars, such as Superman, Batman, Wonderwoman, Captain Marvel and all of them out with a new beginning and go from there.
I mean, really, it's getting so convoluted that it is difficult for anyone to keep up with continuity anymore.

I can remember people saying this in 1990. They'll probably be saying this in 2030.

Its scary to me to see Marvel moving slowly toward a DC-style system with their own versions of parallel Earths.

[thtadthtshldntb]

Marvel has always had an infinite number of realities and timelines.

[Whirlysplat]

Byrne's retcon established that is not true. He doesn't act klutzy or mild-mannered in any of his post-CoIE stories (though some were a bit like that now...I hope they don't go back to the Silver Age Kent).

Regardless, he self-identifies as Clark AND Kal. Kal is what he goes by with other Kryptonians and aliens, Clark is how he refers to himself with his real friends and family.

If you have been reading Action Comics for the past year or so you know Clark is a klutz again. He looks like Chris Reeves and has the precrisis supporting cast. Even the Greg Lombard pranks on Clark and from Clark on Greg are back.

[Curt Kobain]

Marvel has always had an infinite number of realities and timelines.

I mean with the Ultimates and the numbering. It's all very DC-ish.

[thtadthtshldntb]

The numbering dates as far back as at least the early 1980s.

[Whirlysplat]

The numbering dates as far back as at least the early 1980s.

Indeed it does and you can thank British Marvel for it in the Captain Britain strip of the time.

[thtadthtshldntb]

I think that's when the main reality we see became 616.

The number reality idea predates that by a couple of years however, I think.

[Whirlysplat]

I think that's when the main reality we see became 616.

The number reality idea predates that by a couple of years however, I think.

Really? I'd never seen it before that. Obviously lots of alternate realities had cropped up before. Like the Squadron Supreme in Avengers and Ben Grimm explaining how every event causes a divergent timeline in M2in1. I'd never seen the numbering before though.

Before Crisis of course DC had infinite earths. Let's hope it does again soon.