comiXtreme

Go Back  
Register Games Social Groups Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old September 13th 2006, 09:56 PM
Blake Petit's Avatar
Blake Petit Blake Petit is offline
cX COLUMNS EDITOR
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 25,641
Location: Ama, Louisiana
Users Flag!
Blake Petit has much to be proud ofBlake Petit has much to be proud ofBlake Petit has much to be proud ofBlake Petit has much to be proud ofBlake Petit has much to be proud ofBlake Petit has much to be proud ofBlake Petit has much to be proud ofBlake Petit has much to be proud of
EVERYTHING BUT IMAGINARY #181: FOLLOWING 52


So let’s take a minute, if we may, to discuss the “greatest rock band in comics.” Quite some time ago, DC Comics announced they would follow their Infinite Crisis series with an ambitious year-long maxiseries coming out every week and written by four of the hottest creators in their stable. 52 premiered in May, and while it’s as divisive as any other “event” comic you could name, one thing no one can deny is that the writing team of Mark Waid, Grant Morrison, Geoff Johns and Greg Rucka (alias “MG3”) have found a real synergy, a surprising talent for working together and generating a consistent product. Nineteen issues in and there hasn’t been a single late shipping book, and if the reports about far ahead the team is working is true, there won’t be any in the foreseeable future.

What’s more, these guys have found an amazing groove in their writing. They flow seamlessly back and forth between six or seven storylines, and it’s virtually impossible to tell which writer is tackling which scenes in any given issue. What’s more, it seems like the writing team has forged a genuine friendship as well. Collaborating four ways on a year-long, weekly story may be the hardest job any of them has ever done, but as near as anyone can tell, they love it.

So the question here is obvious. Once 52 comes to its inevitable end, is there a way to “keep the band together?”

I think there is.

The thing is, after a project like this one, you can’t put them together on just any old book. It would be kind of odd to see the four of them collaborating on a Justice League of America series, or contributing bits and pieces to issues of Batman. Heck, even the long-awaited Inferior Five resurrection would be a little beneath them. No, any comic they bring the band to in the future would have to be a unique comic in its own right, something worthy of a follow-up to 52.

So before we turn our eye to what they might want to do next, let’s examine what they’re doing now. What is it that’s making 52 work, (as I believe it definitely does)? What makes it, in the world of event comics, unique?

First, let’s look at the cast. Initially, six characters were announced as being protagonists for the various storylines sweeping through the series: Booster Gold, Black Adam, Steel, The Question, ex-Gotham City Police Department officer Renee Montoya and former Elongated Man Ralph Dibney. While these have remained the major characters (for the most part), it was evident early in the story that there were other storylines, other characters that would also play important roles. Dr. Will Magnus and Dr. T.O. Morrow – creators of the heroic Metal Men and the villainous Amazo (respectively) – are involved in a subplot about the disappearances of mad scientists around the globe. Out in space, Starfire, Adam Strange and Animal Man, lost during the Crisis, are struggling to get home.

Even these aren’t the extent of the cast, though. Many other characters have appeared, including Wonder Girl and Zauriel, Captain Marvel’s family and Metamorpho. Booster found the remains of Rip Hunter’s time lab, Lobo was reintroduced and new characters – including the Chinese heroes The Great Ten, the mysterious Supernova, the Middle Eastern ray of light Isis and a new Batwoman – have appeared for the first time.

And absent, at least in any major capacity, are the big guns. Superman has no powers in this “missing year,” although he does appear as Clark Kent in his reporter role. Batman and Wonder Woman haven’t been around, although word has it we’ll check in on them later. There is no Flash. Aquaman is AWOL and the Green Lanterns and Green Arrow have made only limited appearances. DC has created a book where almost every major character is considered a B-lister, or even a C-lister. But by putting these four incredible writers on the project, we care about these characters. We want to know what’s happening. We bleed with Booster, we weep for Ralph, and our heart even starts to melt a little when Black Adam finds love. I’ve always believed that any character can be made compelling if handled by the right writer. MG3 is proving it for us with this series.

There’s another element that really makes the series unique to me, and that’s the episodic, serial format. In 19 issues of a regular comic book series, you could have read anwhere from three to six single stories, each self-contained, each with its own beginning or end. In 52, we’ve gone through over a half-dozen different storylines, weaving in and out of each other, some already over (although not without launching new storylines in their wake). We’ve gotten so used to seeing “Part Three of Six” on the cover of a comic, or even cheering for that all-too-rare single-issue story. We’ve forgotten that most ongoing comics are an episodic story form. Or at least, they can be.

There’s nothing wrong with single-issue stories, and there’s nothing wrong with an arc, but variety is the spice of life. I kind of like not really knowing when a comic book storyline will end. When you’re reading part three of four, you spend the whole issue waiting for a cliffhanger ending, and if it seems like the story is about to wrap up, you just know the other shoe will drop. When you don’t know how long a specific story is going to last, there’s a greater element of surprise. And when you’re telling multiple stories at once – stories that intertwine, but can still begin and end separately – even if you hit a storyline that doesn’t resonate for you as much, you know if you just wait a few pages you’ll walk back into a story you do like.

Other than 52, I can only think of one ongoing comic on the market right now that even remotely fits in this storytelling format: Jay Faerber’s Noble Causes. Justifiably labeled as a “superhero soap opera,” Noble Causes follows the various stories of the Noble family, the Image Universe’s premiere superheroes. At present, the various stories up in the air include the son Rusty, who believes his girlfriend Cosmic Rae was replaced by a robot, not knowing she was a robot all along. His ex-wife Celeste is having an affair with Dawn, daughter of the Noble patriarch’s arch-enemy. Dawn’s brother Slate has begun a flirtatious relationship with Rusty’s sister Zephyr, although both are in their “secret identities” and don’t know that the other is their sworn enemy, and Slate seems to be working against his father. Rusty and Zephyr’s brother Race has lost his powers, Zephyr thinks the child she gave birth to is dead but has actually been taken in by the daughter of another arch-enemy, and their half-brother Frost seems to be playing every side against the other. And those are just the storylines I can remember off the top of my head. One of my favorite things about this book is its unpredictability. Without set “arcs” and with so many stories, it seems like anything could happen at any time.

That’s also one of the things I love about 52. It’s something I would love to see more often. And it’s something I think MG3 does very well.

“So Blake,” you ask me, “What would you do, if you were an editor at DC Comics? What proposal do you think should land on the desk of editor Stephen Wacker? What idea should Dan Didio immediately put into action, and agree to pay you vast amounts of royalties for coming up with it?”

I think the basic 52 format should continue in a new, ongoing series with the freedom to dance across the entire DC Universe. Not a weekly one – I think even MG3 would explode if they had to keep up the pace permanently – but a monthly book, or perhaps one that comes out every three weeks… that could possibly work. And the “realtime” element would have to be abandoned, or by the end of the title’s first year it would be so far ahead of the rest of the DC Universe that the entire “world” would be permanently hamstrung by the events of this new title. But I think an ongoing serial comic, following various characters with stories of varying lengths, would be a fantastic idea.

The new title wouldn’t have to work towards a single ending point the way 52 does either, but would rather read more like a soap opera, intertwining multiple stories around a large cast – a “Who’s Who of the DC Universe” if you’ll allow me to be so bold. And while the “big guns” would be allowed to appear, the writers would be more likely to breathe new life into defunct characters and introduce brand-new characters in this series, all the while telling great stories of indeterminate length. Single-issue stories would be as possible as 25-part epics, and each of those would be wrapped around two or three other stories of varying lengths.

This would be a chance to see characters like Richard Dragon, the Doom Patrol, S.T.R.I.P.E. or Gypsy get their turn in the spotlight, a chance to introduce new characters, or a chance to focus on cult favorites like Ambush Bug or Captain Carrot (shut up, I love the Zoo Crew), all without taking the risk on an ongoing series or miniseries or sticking them with the stigma of an "anthology" series. In fact, since anthologies just don't sell that well in superhero comics, this could be a viable format for any superhero "universe."

Oh. And one last thing.

I think the title of the book should be Showcase.

What are the chances of such a book appearing? Honestly, I don’t know. At every 52 panel, the creators say they’re looking for ways to keep the band together, but I think it would probably be comic book history if a new ongoing series was launched featuring four top writers based solely on the recommendation of a babbling Internet columnist. But it doesn’t just have to be my babbling, guys. Feel free to babble yourselves. If you’re digging 52, let the guys at DC know you’d like to see the format continue somehow.

This is something different, I think. This is something that could be pretty cool.

This is definitely something I want to see.

Favorite of the Week: September 6, 2006

I was nervous about this book when it was announced, but I was happy to be surprised. Mystery in Space #1 pushed aside the competition to take this weeks’ favorite prize. I was worried that Captain Comet was going to be unceremoniously bumped off and replaced to make way for a younger, “cooler” cosmic hero. Turns out the story was nothing like what I thought, but very good nonetheless. If you’re looking for the rebirth of DC’s cosmic heroes, this is the book to buy.

Blake M. Petit is the author of the superhero comedy novel, Other People's Heroes, the suspense novel The Beginner and the weekly “Think About It” humor column at Think About It Central. His new comic, Evertime, is coming soon from Tightlip Entertainment. E-mail him at Blake@comixtreme.com and visit him on the web at Evertime Realms.
__________________
I've got a new eBook for sale! And a new podcast for you to listen to? More info at...

(Pssst. Click the banner.)

Last edited by Blake Petit; September 13th 2006 at 10:11 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old September 13th 2006, 10:02 PM
Jason Kanno's Avatar
Jason Kanno Jason Kanno is offline
cX Frontpage Staff
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,402
Location: Virginia
Users Flag!
Jason Kanno is a splendid one to beholdJason Kanno is a splendid one to beholdJason Kanno is a splendid one to beholdJason Kanno is a splendid one to beholdJason Kanno is a splendid one to beholdJason Kanno is a splendid one to beholdJason Kanno is a splendid one to behold
I took a look at the new 52... and I had no freakin' idea what the heck was going on. My fault really, but it looked interesting. I wonder how they're going to collect 52.
__________________
The poster formerly known as WMDude46

Ninja of the USH

Saving the world... one bowl of rice at a time.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old September 13th 2006, 10:29 PM
Terry Verticchio's Avatar
Terry Verticchio Terry Verticchio is offline
Begin the staredown!
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 18,540
Location: The snowy wastes
Users Flag!
Terry Verticchio has much to be proud ofTerry Verticchio has much to be proud ofTerry Verticchio has much to be proud ofTerry Verticchio has much to be proud ofTerry Verticchio has much to be proud ofTerry Verticchio has much to be proud ofTerry Verticchio has much to be proud ofTerry Verticchio has much to be proud ofTerry Verticchio has much to be proud of
I tanked this title.

Sorry. I just couldn't stand the idea of paying for this book for 52 straight weeks.

I'm sure its very good. The format turned me off pretty much from the beginning.
__________________
Socially maladjusted and intellectually inert comic-book geeks unite!

I hope this 911 thing is for real and not just on tv
--Thorn

Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old September 13th 2006, 10:38 PM
Mark Blicharz's Avatar
Mark Blicharz Mark Blicharz is offline
Chief Moderator-Wielder of the Almighty Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 26,692
Location: New Jersey
Users Flag!
Mark Blicharz has much to be proud ofMark Blicharz has much to be proud ofMark Blicharz has much to be proud ofMark Blicharz has much to be proud ofMark Blicharz has much to be proud ofMark Blicharz has much to be proud ofMark Blicharz has much to be proud ofMark Blicharz has much to be proud of
You're missing so much Terry, so much.
__________________
"The main reason Santa is so jolly is because he knows where all the bad girls live.

I went to a bookstore and asked the saleswoman, "Where's the self-help section?" She said if she told me, it would defeat the purpose." RIP George Carlin

Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old September 13th 2006, 10:40 PM
Blake Petit's Avatar
Blake Petit Blake Petit is offline
cX COLUMNS EDITOR
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 25,641
Location: Ama, Louisiana
Users Flag!
Blake Petit has much to be proud ofBlake Petit has much to be proud ofBlake Petit has much to be proud ofBlake Petit has much to be proud ofBlake Petit has much to be proud ofBlake Petit has much to be proud ofBlake Petit has much to be proud ofBlake Petit has much to be proud of
More bang for your buck than any other comic in the market, in my opinion.

Regardless, I'm not advocating they keep up a weekly series permanently. I just think the storytelling format is a great one, and should be kept alive.
__________________
I've got a new eBook for sale! And a new podcast for you to listen to? More info at...

(Pssst. Click the banner.)
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old September 13th 2006, 11:18 PM
Joe Illidge's Avatar
Joe Illidge Joe Illidge is offline
Sidekick
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,331
Users Flag!
Joe Illidge is a jewel in the roughJoe Illidge is a jewel in the roughJoe Illidge is a jewel in the rough
52 does not invite new readers. God forbid someone walk into a comic book store and see something called "52: WEEK NINETEEN".

I downloaded the first five issues from ugo.com and read them.

Issue 1 was interesting.

2 was okay. 3 was barely worthy of being printed.

4 was cool, but I love The Question/Montoya duo.

5 was actually good.

The only issue I'll actually buy is the all Batman group issue that's on the horizon, as that will likely be a great read.

But in terms of bang for your buck, I'd put Paul Dini's DETECTIVE COMICS (A complete stort in every issue!) and NEXTWAVE above 52 in terms of power packed into each issue.

Also, will someone tell the DC writing team of 52 that young Black women don't tend to curse at the elders with whom they live. Or more accurately, not if they've had a certain upbringing. Because I HATED when Natasha Irons cursed at her uncle to his face.

Great characterization of Black America in a book designed to profile Steel in a positive light.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old September 13th 2006, 11:36 PM
Blake Petit's Avatar
Blake Petit Blake Petit is offline
cX COLUMNS EDITOR
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 25,641
Location: Ama, Louisiana
Users Flag!
Blake Petit has much to be proud ofBlake Petit has much to be proud ofBlake Petit has much to be proud ofBlake Petit has much to be proud ofBlake Petit has much to be proud ofBlake Petit has much to be proud ofBlake Petit has much to be proud ofBlake Petit has much to be proud of
I like Dini's Detective, yeah, but I absolutely LOVE how much is going on in 52.

And Joe, if you don't think teenage girls would talk like that to their elders, I'd like to introduce you to some of the kids in my 9th grade class... I've HEARD girls cursing out their parents. Natasha isn't supposed to be representative of "black teenagers," she's just supposed to be a teenager.
__________________
I've got a new eBook for sale! And a new podcast for you to listen to? More info at...

(Pssst. Click the banner.)
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old September 14th 2006, 12:26 AM
Joe Illidge's Avatar
Joe Illidge Joe Illidge is offline
Sidekick
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,331
Users Flag!
Joe Illidge is a jewel in the roughJoe Illidge is a jewel in the roughJoe Illidge is a jewel in the rough
Originally posted by Blake Petit

Quote:
I like Dini's Detective, yeah, but I absolutely LOVE how much is going on in 52.
But you're the lucky guy who likes every storyline.

When they cross, like Steel being called in on the returned space heroes in need of medical and scientific help, that's cool, but the Steel story, in and of itself, was pretty blah to me.

Quote:
And Joe, if you don't think teenage girls would talk like that to their elders, I'd like to introduce you to some of the kids in my 9th grade class... I've HEARD girls cursing out their parents. Natasha isn't supposed to be representative of "black teenagers," she's just supposed to be a teenager.
Now, Blake, I don't live on Mars. OF COURSE kids curse at the elders (to which they should then receive a turbine slap across the face, but that's another area of discussion), but I'll tell you the problem with Natasha doing it in 52.

First off, do any other teenagers in the DCU treat their parents or elders in so verbally disrespectful a fashion?

I bet not.

Second, and this goes back to something my former boss and mentor Dwayne McDuffie said to me when the UPN was in full swing with its slew of offensive Black comedies.

It's fine to characterize people of color whom are not upstanding IF the playing field has enough material to show a balanced representation of an ethnic-national group.

52 is one of DC's top-selling books. More people buy 52 per month than buy most other comic books.

In a vehicle DESIGNED to be consumed to such a degree, the fact that the only Black woman who's a supporting member of the cast is portrayed in that way is not cool.

Might seem nitpicky and sensitive, but Christopher Priest wrote STEEL for a year and a half, and Natasha never cursed at John Irons, yet somehow, the demigods of comic book writing combine to make a comic book that fails to consider the possibility that Black teen anger can occur without the use of obscenities.

Disappointing.

Y'know, I may have to write Steve Wacker about this.

And I do apologize for getting into this and getting away from fan discussion about 52, but it did strike me as offensive when I read it.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old September 14th 2006, 01:40 AM
Liam Creswick's Avatar
Liam Creswick Liam Creswick is offline
cX Reviews
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,798
Location: Edmonton Alberta
Users Flag!
Liam Creswick is a splendid one to beholdLiam Creswick is a splendid one to beholdLiam Creswick is a splendid one to beholdLiam Creswick is a splendid one to beholdLiam Creswick is a splendid one to beholdLiam Creswick is a splendid one to beholdLiam Creswick is a splendid one to behold
I don't think the situation with John and Natasha would be any different if they were White, Asian, Latin or Thanigarian. And just cause she would have never done it before doesnt mean she can't now. All the characters of 52 are changing. Black Adam is a (sort of) good guy for cripes sake!

And I am digging 52. It is rarely my fav book of the week, but it is always good. Ol' reliable so to speak. There hans't really been a bad issue yet IMO. And your right Blake, it is really refreshing to read an open ended, interwining story. And I love seeing the Question get some face time (pun definatley intended) The ever changing cast of characters is great too, and these writers are so good, anyone could show up in 52 and I would enjoy it. (Yes, probably even Captian Carrot)

And for those of you not buying because of the money, think ahead friends! I came this close to dropping it around issue 6, soley based on the money. But then I had one of my incredibly great ideas. How many people do you think are going to stick it out till the end? Lots, probably, but I bet the people with have #1 to 10 then gave up will be way more than the people who read #1 - #52. Think of what a complete set of all 52 issues will fetch on Ebay or at a con. I cant say ill make money, or even break even, but even if I can sell it for half what I spent, then it is worth it. And who knows, some mad collector may pay a handsom sum for all 52 of 52 and I might make money! Basicly, the money is no longer a factor, and as long as I can scronge up the 3 bux to by it each week, im in it for the long hall.
__________________
Pop Culture Junkie Formerly know as "Nekronaut"
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old September 14th 2006, 07:02 AM
Blake Petit's Avatar
Blake Petit Blake Petit is offline
cX COLUMNS EDITOR
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 25,641
Location: Ama, Louisiana
Users Flag!
Blake Petit has much to be proud ofBlake Petit has much to be proud ofBlake Petit has much to be proud ofBlake Petit has much to be proud ofBlake Petit has much to be proud ofBlake Petit has much to be proud ofBlake Petit has much to be proud ofBlake Petit has much to be proud of
I can understand how you feel, Joe -- I just don't really see it in that light. True, Natasha never turned on John in his own series, but he'd never taken away her armor then either. Race is clearly part of every character, but in this case, I don't think it was a driving factor in her behavior.

At any rate, I was concerned more with format than content for this column. I think an open-ended "soap opera" in the DCU would be a great read.
__________________
I've got a new eBook for sale! And a new podcast for you to listen to? More info at...

(Pssst. Click the banner.)
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old September 14th 2006, 12:37 PM
Joe Illidge's Avatar
Joe Illidge Joe Illidge is offline
Sidekick
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,331
Users Flag!
Joe Illidge is a jewel in the roughJoe Illidge is a jewel in the roughJoe Illidge is a jewel in the rough
Originally posted by Blake Petit

Quote:
At any rate, I was concerned more with format than content for this column. I think an open-ended "soap opera" in the DCU would be a great read.
I can agree with that, but it would need a central character as the fulcrum.

I think what Alex Ross, Waid, and Gene Ha were originally planning to do with THE KINGDOM is close to what you're conceiving.

Forget weekly, though, as the editor behind such a book would want to commit suicide. It would have to be monthly.

It would also be a great opportunity to get writers who can't handle a monthly schedule to do arcs, like Mister five issues of a now bi-monthly Wonder Woman title Allan Heinberg.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old September 14th 2006, 06:12 PM
fourmyle's Avatar
fourmyle fourmyle is offline
Fan
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 213
Location: Columbia, MO
Users Flag!
fourmyle will become famous soon enoughfourmyle will become famous soon enough
Just for the record...

Wondergirl broke the desk of her principal in half, while screaming at her, has diobeyed and fought with her mother on many occasions and has fought openly with Wonderwoman.

Superboy burned a hole through Superman's cape in anger, as well as having open, yelling fights with him and skipped school on a regular basis.

Robin blatantly lied to Starfire, then admits to lying to Batman. He also had relatively regular fights with his father.

Hawkeye, Patriot and the rest of the Young Avengers have verbally and physically fought with Captain America and Iron Man.

The Runaways, on many occasions have defied authority, faught with and disrespected their elders. Molly punched Wolverine through a plate-glass window.

Well written characters all over comic books of all races and sexes fight with and disrespect their elders. Also, three of the above examples occured in Teen Titans, written by Geoff Johns, who also writes 52.
__________________
I believe the robots are our future.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old September 14th 2006, 06:38 PM
Joe Illidge's Avatar
Joe Illidge Joe Illidge is offline
Sidekick
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,331
Users Flag!
Joe Illidge is a jewel in the roughJoe Illidge is a jewel in the roughJoe Illidge is a jewel in the rough
Originally posted by fourmyle

Quote:
Just for the record...

Wondergirl broke the desk of her principal in half, while screaming at her, has diobeyed and fought with her mother on many occasions and has fought openly with Wonderwoman.
But did Cassie curse at Wonder Woman?

Quote:
Superboy burned a hole through Superman's cape in anger, as well as having open, yelling fights with him and skipped school on a regular basis.
But did Superboy CURSE at Superman?

Quote:
Robin blatantly lied to Starfire, then admits to lying to Batman. He also had relatively regular fights with his father.
BUT DID TIMOTHY DRAKE CURSE AT STARFIRE, BATMAN, OR HIS DAD?

See where this is going?

Quote:
Hawkeye, Patriot and the rest of the Young Avengers have verbally and physically fought with Captain America and Iron Man.

The Runaways, on many occasions have defied authority, faught with and disrespected their elders. Molly punched Wolverine through a plate-glass window.
Yes, I know about the Molly/Wolverine thing. I pointed it out in my last column weeks ago.

Quote:
Well written characters all over comic books of all races and sexes fight with and disrespect their elders. Also, three of the above examples occured in Teen Titans, written by Geoff Johns, who also writes 52.
You totally missed my point.

OBVIOUSLY, teenagers challenge and disrespect authority, but to actually curse at your elder is of the highest offense, and I don't know about how you were raised, but I would never have done that.

To see Natasha Irons, a character written by various writers to be an intelligent and clever young woman REDUCE herself to that level, and disrespect her father figure like that is a DISGRACE.

Oh, and Geoff Johns is an overrated writer. He's the weakest of the 52 quartet, so using him as your defense only weakens your argument, which in no way really addressed the specific point I made.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old September 14th 2006, 06:59 PM
fourmyle's Avatar
fourmyle fourmyle is offline
Fan
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 213
Location: Columbia, MO
Users Flag!
fourmyle will become famous soon enoughfourmyle will become famous soon enough
You asked if other young characters in the DCU have disrespected their elders, those were examples of disrespect. Personally, I view physical attacks to be a little more offensive than verbal ones, regardless of how vitriolic the words may be. I also believe that to lie to anyone is a more grave offense than to curse at them. It seems that you have a different perspective than I do on what is offensive, which is perfectly fair, but the difference of perspective really decreases the usefulness of the argument.

However, I think I do understand your point. Perhaps Natasha has never been written in quite this way before, but even intelligent, rational people do unintelligent irrational things, on occasion. I was raised to respect my elders. I was raised to believe that to curse at another person is an act of violence, and that violence is wrong. In a lifetime of generally good behavior and respect of my elders, I once cursed at my father in anger. I was seventeen it was the most tremendous fight I would ever have with one of my parents, but I did it. It was extremely out of character. It was certainly disgraceful. I almost immediately regretted it. I had never done it before. I would never do it again. But that day, I did it. Every day people, intelligent, thoughtful people do foolish, thoughtless things. No one, not even comic book heroes are perfect (and if they were these books would be kind of boring). Simply because a character, or a real person has never done something stupid in your presence doesn't mean they've never done, or will never do something stupid.

Further, I accept and respect that your opinion of Geoff Johns is quite different from mine, but to say that my citing other examples of his writing weakens my argument is rather silly. I was mostly using the connection to point out that he has written multiple teenaged characters of varied sex and ethnicity in similar situations, in order to make the point that he is not singling out Natasha as either a black or a female character behaving in this fashion. My use of Johns as an example was only for this reason, and not as a comment of the quality of his writing.
__________________
I believe the robots are our future.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old September 14th 2006, 07:07 PM
Liam Creswick's Avatar
Liam Creswick Liam Creswick is offline
cX Reviews
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,798
Location: Edmonton Alberta
Users Flag!
Liam Creswick is a splendid one to beholdLiam Creswick is a splendid one to beholdLiam Creswick is a splendid one to beholdLiam Creswick is a splendid one to beholdLiam Creswick is a splendid one to beholdLiam Creswick is a splendid one to beholdLiam Creswick is a splendid one to behold
So your saying swearing is worse than lying, property destruction, and throwing someone thru a window?

She swore at her Uncle in in a fight about loosing her armour, and this is a problem? If any elder hero or parent told thier repective youngster they couldent do thier hero thing anymore, Id bet alot of moeny that there would be $%#&s, !@##s, *&$%s, and middle fingers involved. The fact is that instead of ignoring that fact, these writers chose to show it. Wether you think that was a wise choice or not is your call, but the characters in questions race have nothing to do with it. Not once did I think "Oh my! She swore at him! Black people must have no respect for thier elders." (or anything similar) and I highly doubt any resonable person did either. I saw an angry teenager doing what angery teenahgers do, and I say kudos to these writers for thier choice instead of avoiding using big-boy words in an all-ages book. Sure they were bleep out, but I think it added emphasis, not the other way around.
__________________
Pop Culture Junkie Formerly know as "Nekronaut"
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old September 14th 2006, 07:19 PM
Joe Illidge's Avatar
Joe Illidge Joe Illidge is offline
Sidekick
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,331
Users Flag!
Joe Illidge is a jewel in the roughJoe Illidge is a jewel in the roughJoe Illidge is a jewel in the rough
Originally posted by fourmyle

Quote:
You asked if other young characters in the DCU have disrespected their elders, those were examples of disrespect.
Actually, what I asked was "...do any other teenagers in the DCU treat their parents or elders in so verbally disrespectful a fashion?"

Since you have not cited one instance in which another DCU teen hero has done so, the answer is no.

Oh, btw, except for the Black Jonny Thunder, who when introduced by Morrison in JLU had a sailor mouth, but I actually think Morrison was trying (albeit lacking in discretion) to make a point.

Quote:
Personally, I view physical attacks to be a little more offensive than verbal ones, regardless of how vitriolic the words may be. I also believe that to lie to anyone is a more grave offense than to curse at them. It seems that you have a different perspective than I do on what is offensive, which is perfectly fair, but the difference of perspective really decreases the usefulness of the argument.

However, I think I do understand your point. Perhaps Natasha has never been written in quite this way before, but even intelligent, rational people do unintelligent irrational things, on occasion. I was raised to respect my elders. I was raised to believe that to curse at another person is an act of violence, and that violence is wrong. In a lifetime of generally good behavior and respect of my elders, I once cursed at my father in anger. I was seventeen it was the most tremendous fight I would ever have with one of my parents, but I did it. It was extremely out of character. It was certainly disgraceful. I almost immediately regretted it. I had never done it before. I would never do it again. But that day, I did it. Every day people, intelligent, thoughtful people do foolish, thoughtless things. No one, not even comic book heroes are perfect (and if they were these books would be kind of boring). Simply because a character, or a real person has never done something stupid in your presence doesn't mean they've never done, or will never do something stupid.

Further, I accept and respect that your opinion of Geoff Johns is quite different from mine, but to say that my citing other examples of his writing weakens my argument is rather silly. I was mostly using the connection to point out that he has written multiple teenaged characters of varied sex and ethnicity in similar situations, in order to make the point that he is not singling out Natasha as either a black or a female character behaving in this fashion. My use of Johns as an example was only for this reason, and not as a comment of the quality of his writing.
Your points are well taken.

However, since it's never been revealed which 52 writers write which scenes, it's interesting that you cited three times that Geoff Johns, not any of his three co-writers, showed teens being disrespectful to their elders.

Do you belive Geoff wrote that scene?

If so, it only furthers my point about characterization, as this would be the first time he's shown a BLACK GIRL doing so, and somehow, the use of an obscenity was "necessary" to communicate Natasha Irons's feelings at that moment.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old September 14th 2006, 07:33 PM
Joe Illidge's Avatar
Joe Illidge Joe Illidge is offline
Sidekick
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,331
Users Flag!
Joe Illidge is a jewel in the roughJoe Illidge is a jewel in the roughJoe Illidge is a jewel in the rough
Originally posted by Liam Creswick

Quote:
So your saying swearing is worse than lying, property destruction, and throwing someone thru a window?
I suspect you know that's not what I meant, but since I did not clarify, let me do so now.

I consider cursing at your elder of the highest order of VERBAL offense.

Quote:
She swore at her Uncle in in a fight about loosing her armour, and this is a problem? If any elder hero or parent told thier repective youngster they couldent do thier hero thing anymore, Id bet alot of moeny that there would be $%#&s, !@##s, *&$%s, and middle fingers involved. The fact is that instead of ignoring that fact, these writers chose to show it. Wether you think that was a wise choice or not is your call, but the characters in questions race have nothing to do with it. Not once did I think "Oh my! She swore at him! Black people must have no respect for thier elders." (or anything similar) and I highly doubt any resonable person did either.
You're quite presumptuous on a variety of levels.

It is the call of every reader to perceive content as offensive, misrepresentational, and irresponsibly executed, or not.

As for what reasonable people think, I'm not saying that readers will say Natasha Irons is the representation of all of Black Teen America, but I am saying that I, as a Black person, was offended by her character execution considering how well she's been handled in the past.

Now, kids have impressionable minds, but hey, are they really reading comic books? But for those that are, I take issue with any Black kid reading a comic in which their age peer fictional character treats their authority figure with that level of verbal disrespect in a fictional universe where no other age peer from another ethnic group does so. Not Robin, The Blue Beetle, or Wonder Girl.

Quote:
I saw an angry teenager doing what angery teenahgers do, and I say kudos to these writers for thier choice instead of avoiding using big-boy words in an all-ages book. Sure they were bleep out, but I think it added emphasis, not the other way around.
Added emphasis?

Kudos to these writers?

Well, to each their own.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old September 14th 2006, 11:46 PM
Jim Wright's Avatar
Jim Wright Jim Wright is offline
Rising Star
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,627
Location: South Carolina
Users Flag!
Jim Wright is a name known to allJim Wright is a name known to allJim Wright is a name known to allJim Wright is a name known to allJim Wright is a name known to allJim Wright is a name known to all
Well as an old school virtues guy raised in the South, I know that if my daughters cussed at me, it'd be more disrespectful than anything short of them spitting in my face or slapping my face, so I can see where Joe is coming from.

I argued with my dad as a teen, and even with my temper, I never once even considered cussing him out. Hitting, I did. Yelling, I did a lot. Stalking off and sulking I did. Cuss my dad? No chance.

Natasha's actions rang wrong with me as well. I have to say I do think Steel's role in 52 has been lacking lots of development compared to the others.
__________________
The Poster formerly known as JimYamato


Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanor Epona View Post
Further I think the powers at Marvel don't know what they've done -- it got them on TV, right, now they're famous, that means they're important.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old September 15th 2006, 12:30 AM
Joe Illidge's Avatar
Joe Illidge Joe Illidge is offline
Sidekick
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,331
Users Flag!
Joe Illidge is a jewel in the roughJoe Illidge is a jewel in the roughJoe Illidge is a jewel in the rough
THANK YOU for being a voice of perspective, Jim, and you being a parent, your take on the subject of cussing from both angles is one I totally agree with.

I never cursed at my mother, and while I don't have kids, if I ever caught my nine year-old Goddaughter cussing at her parents, a stern reprimanding would be in order.

Steel-storyline-wise, I've only read issues 1-5, but I did like how the Steel storyline dovetailed into the story of the space survivors.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old September 15th 2006, 12:49 AM
Ben Lehnsherr's Avatar
Ben Lehnsherr Ben Lehnsherr is offline
is looking at you.
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,755
Location: Virginia
Users Flag!
Ben Lehnsherr is a splendid one to beholdBen Lehnsherr is a splendid one to beholdBen Lehnsherr is a splendid one to beholdBen Lehnsherr is a splendid one to beholdBen Lehnsherr is a splendid one to beholdBen Lehnsherr is a splendid one to beholdBen Lehnsherr is a splendid one to behold
At about Week 16, my bro told me he wanted to read these so i picked up all the prior issues and put it on my pull list. If I hadnt read Infinite Crisis, I'd probably be completely lost, but since I have, I was only half lost (I only collect JLA and 52 and thats for my bro). Marvel just works better for me, but that said, the storylines arent half bad, but I dunno if its enough to keep me buying all 52 weeks. I guess we shall see.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:37 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
comiXtreme © 1999-2008 comiXtreme.com