2 IN 1 SHOWCASE EPISODE FIFTY-THREE: THE ULTIMATE MARVEL UNIVERSE

[Blake Petit]

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Episode Fifty-Three: The Ultimate Marvel Universe
by Chase Bouzigard and Blake Petit

It's one of the most heated debates in Showcase history, as Chase and Blake pull apart Marvel's Ultimate Universe. The guys each pick their favorite stories and talk about the current state of the line, and they each have pretty strong feelings over this one. In the picks this week, Blake digs Booster Gold #6, while Chase pimps the newest Youngblood #1. Next week, the Showcase team will spotlight X-Men: Messiah Complex, so be sure to send your thoughts and suggestions to Showcase@comixtreme.com!

Music provided by the Podshow Podsafe Music Network.

Episode Fifty-Three: The Ultimate Marvel Universe

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Episode Fifty-Three: 2 in 1 Checklist






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[Wolverace]

Last week Byrne, now Ultimate.

Oh yeah.

Comments:

They speak Dutch in Belgium. I was not offended however.

Chase, I'm not reading Ultimates Vol.3. I simply had a feeling I would not like it, mostly because I don't like Joe Mad or Loeb's Marvel work. I was so in love with Volume 1 & 2, that the new direction would surely bother me. I saw the solicitations, and I figured correctly it would "retcon" what happened before. Then I read most of the online reviews of the first issue,...
Instead of Ultimates Vol.3, I now am looking forward to the new Fantastic Four issues. Guess I'm too much of a Millar-fan.

And yet I stil love the Horny Hulk story. How can you not?

All in all, great episode again.

[Blake Petit]

Glad you weren't offended, man -- sorry for my meager geography skills.

[Wolverace]

Originally Posted by Blake Petit

Glad you weren't offended, man -- sorry for my meager geography skills.

And you're supposed to be a teacher...

[Zap Rowsdower]

Wow. I've never heard anyone else describe my feelings on Mark Millar so perfectly. Shock over substance, characters distilled down to their own worst qualities, no depth, his characters aren't human they are caricatures.

His characters aren't heroes with flaws, they are selfish horrible people with no redeeming factors. I'm thought of as something of a cynical, bitter old man in my social circle, and even I think Millar's characters are worse than real people would be.

[Wolverace]

Originally Posted by Zap Rowsdower

Wow. I've never heard anyone else describe my feelings on Mark Millar so perfectly. Shock over substance, characters distilled down to their own worst qualities, no depth, his characters aren't human they are caricatures.

His characters aren't heroes with flaws, they are selfish horrible people with no redeeming factors. I'm thought of as something of a cynical, bitter old man in my social circle, and even I think Millar's characters are worse than real people would be.

I believe Millar made his Ultimates, and especially his Captain America, based upon how he views the United States of America and their current administration. Conservative and extremely patriotic. I think Millar touched upon that in interviews.
His characters felt very real imo. Not perfect, flawed, but real.

[Ben Lehnsherr]

Notes from the podcast.....

-I definitely feel the same way about most of the Ultimate X-Men and Ultimate FF not quite feeling "real".

- I thought Millar had much more character depth than Blake gives him credit for and saying he goes for cheap moments, and they are horrible people is oversimplification, IMO.

Picks of the week....

- I officially dropped Booster Gold with your pick, Blake. I only went two issues in (#5 and #6), but as I said elsewhere....I don't have a PhD in DC continuity and it keeps me from liking it. Too inaccessible to me and I didn't like the lack of restraint in screwing past stories that they stayed away from earlier in the series....

- I picked up Youngblood #1 as a curiosity and dropped that immediately as well. Still feels like a book full of ripoffs, and the character interaction is severly lacking....Plain art didn't help. The ideas behind the book aren't fresh or as interesting anymore and it didn't really feel like Casey had his heart in it. How fast they became media popular really felt off as well.

[Zap Rowsdower]

Originally Posted by Wolverace

I believe Millar made his Ultimates, and especially his Captain America, based upon how he views the United States of America and their current administration. Conservative and extremely patriotic. I think Millar touched upon that in interviews.
His characters felt very real imo. Not perfect, flawed, but real.

And that's what made me hate it most of all. Millar's politics sicken me, and they permeate everything he does.

So in addition for me having no respect for him as an artist/creator, I really have no respect for him as a human being as well.

Because of this I have friends who dismiss my very valid criticism of his work (echoed in this podcast) as my politics influencing my evaluation of his work. And I go, "No, no, I REALLY think he has no talent!"

With other writers whose work I dislike, I make no judgements about them as people.

[Wolverace]

Originally Posted by Zap Rowsdower

And that's what made me hate it most of all. Millar's politics sicken me, and they permeate everything he does.

So in addition for me having no respect for him as an artist/creator, I really have no respect for him as a human being as well.

Because of this I have friends who dismiss my very valid criticism of his work (echoed in this podcast) as my politics influencing my evaluation of his work. And I go, "No, no, I REALLY think he has no talent!"

With other writers whose work I dislike, I make no judgements about them as people.

That's a bit harsh, isn't it?
I have absolutely no problem with his political views. Ultimates was the story that actually benefitted from them. How can you organize an official American superhero team in this day and age without government support?

Or it could be that I agree with most of his views?

But having no respect for him as a human being, that's a bit harsh. But to each his own, IMO.

[Chase Bouzigard]

Originally Posted by Zap Rowsdower

And that's what made me hate it most of all. Millar's politics sicken me, and they permeate everything he does.

So in addition for me having no respect for him as an artist/creator, I really have no respect for him as a human being as well.

Because of this I have friends who dismiss my very valid criticism of his work (echoed in this podcast) as my politics influencing my evaluation of his work. And I go, "No, no, I REALLY think he has no talent!"

With other writers whose work I dislike, I make no judgements about them as people.

Ok Not to get into another, drag out, with you but I disagree with you. NOw Personaly I love politics, ANd I happen to agree with Millar for the most part, I happen to think that he dose have talent, It is just not something that you like, wich is cool.
But I think that the Ultimates was a well thought out book about People Who wanted to be heroes, but just don't aren't the best and brights the world has to offer.

I like this the same way I love Buffy season six, however I am cool with the fact that you don't.

Oh by the way I agree With anyone who wants to bash on Youngblood, It was no great, but It might be my last chance to plug a book I loved as a child.

[Zap Rowsdower]

Originally Posted by Wolverace

That's a bit harsh, isn't it?
I have absolutely no problem with his political views. Ultimates was the story that actually benefitted from them. How can you organize an official American superhero team in this day and age without government support?

Or it could be that I agree with most of his views?

But having no respect for him as a human being, that's a bit harsh. But to each his own, IMO.

I think it would be oversimplification to simply state that you like his work because you agree with his views and I dislike it because his views disgust me.

Of course, it's probably a factor, but I didn't know his politics when I first read (and disliked) his work.

The fact is that there are plenty of people who aren't patriotic conservatives that *still* dislike his work.

So in my opinion, his politics are as backwards as his writing is bad. I don't think his writing is poor BECAUSE of his backwards politics.

[Wolverace]

Originally Posted by Zap Rowsdower

I think it would be oversimplification to simply state that you like his work because you agree with his views and I dislike it because his views disgust me.

Of course, it's probably a factor, but I didn't know his politics when I first read (and disliked) his work.

The fact is that there are plenty of people who aren't patriotic conservatives that *still* dislike his work.

So in my opinion, his politics are as backwards as his writing is bad. I don't think his writing is poor BECAUSE of his backwards politics.

I do not like his writing because of his political views. I like him putting in politics in his writing. It made the story feel poignant and realistic. Backwards politics??

Ultimate Captain America is a soldier out of time. He was trained as a soldier, trained for combat and suddenly he wakes up in a timeperiod where everything he knew (war and society) is gone or reversed. He is realistically depicted as a man from the 40ies. Conservative, patriotic and ...a gentleman (that's why beats up Hank Pym, his mindset is that he has defend a woman).

[Ben Lehnsherr]

Originally Posted by Darthchased

Oh by the way I agree With anyone who wants to bash on Youngblood, It was no great, but It might be my last chance to plug a book I loved as a child.

That was me. I wouldn't call it bashing but I didn't enjoy it. I do understand what you're saying....

[Zap Rowsdower]

Originally Posted by Wolverace

I do not like his writing because of his political views. I like him putting in politics in his writing. It made the story feel pognant and realistic.

It makes it seem realistic IF you believe that American Conservatives like yours truly and the current administration are the worst people in the world and the source of all the worlds problems.

If you don't believe that, then it makes the story feel UNrealistic.

You say the story benefited from him inserting his politicial views, well it only benefits the story if you agree with them

I'm not complaining, though. If I ever write a story European socialists like Millar are likely to come off looking just as awful as Millar depicts American conservatives.

And conservatives will read it and say it feels realistic to them.

[Chase Bouzigard]

Originally Posted by Wolverace

I do not like his writing because of his political views. I like him putting in politics in his writing. It made the story feel poignant and realistic. Backwards politics??

Ultimate Captain America is a soldier out of time. He was trained as a soldier, trained for combat and suddenly he wakes up in a timeperiod where everything he knew (war and society) is gone or reversed. He is realistically depicted as a man from the 40ies. Conservative, patriotic and ...a gentleman (that's why beats up Hank Pym, his mindset is that he has defend a woman).

Preach on Brother.

Oh BTW, Good job to our SC Listeners and voters, We are ready for change and we are Fired up!

[Wolverace]

Originally Posted by Zap Rowsdower

It makes it seem realistic IF you believe that American Conservatives like yours truly and the current administration are the worst people in the world and the source of all the worlds problems.

Millar doesn't really do that. At the end of Volume 2, he even gives the president a heroic role.

Originally Posted by Zap Rowsdower

You say the story benefited from him inserting his politicial views, well it only benefits the story if you agree with them

I'm not complaining, though. If I ever write a story European socialists like Millar are likely to come off looking just as awful as Millar depicts American conservatives.

And conservatives will read it and say it feels realistic to them.

Ultimates was not an attack on conservative America. It really wasn't.

[Chase Bouzigard]

Originally Posted by Wolverace

Millar doesn't really do that. At the end of Volume 2, he even gives the president a heroic role.






Ultimates was not an attack on conservative America. It really wasn't.

Dude, I have to give zap That one, It really was, as was Civil War, and WW Hulk.

[Zap Rowsdower]

Originally Posted by Wolverace

Ultimates was not an attack on conservative America. It really wasn't.

It almost sounds like you're disagreeing with yourself. You started by saying, "I believe Millar made his Ultimates, and especially his Captain America, based upon how he views the United States of America and their current administration. Conservative and extremely patriotic."


You've already said a large part of the story was Millar's commentary on the United States of America and their current administration.

You may disagree that the commentary was an 'attack' (although I don't see how you could argue that) but it was a look at America through the eyes of a radical European socialist.

[Wolverace]

Originally Posted by Zap Rowsdower

It almost sounds like you're disagreeing with yourself. You started by saying, "I believe Millar made his Ultimates, and especially his Captain America, based upon how he views the United States of America and their current administration. Conservative and extremely patriotic."


You've already said a large part of the story was Millar's commentary on the United States of America and their current administration.

You may disagree that the commentary was an 'attack' (although I don't see how you could argue that) but it was a look at America through the eyes of a radical European socialist.

That doesn't mean he blatantly attacked them. He depicted how he views them. He didn't go out to bash them.
Can you give me a clear example of an attack on current administration in Ultimates?

[Chase Bouzigard]

Originally Posted by Zap Rowsdower

It almost sounds like you're disagreeing with yourself. You started by saying, "I believe Millar made his Ultimates, and especially his Captain America, based upon how he views the United States of America and their current administration. Conservative and extremely patriotic."


You've already said a large part of the story was Millar's commentary on the United States of America and their current administration.

You may disagree that the commentary was an 'attack' (although I don't see how you could argue that) but it was a look at America through the eyes of a radical European socialist.

Dude, It will be ok, clam down, Just dont read FF for the next 5 years.